To wind-on or not to wind-on

CMoore · Sep 5, 2017

David A. Goldfarb said:
I wind after shooting to avoid accidental double exposures.

.....how can you accidentally 2x expose.?
Is it possible to trip the shutter without winding the film over.?
Thank You

Anyway.....i always wind before the shot. Always heard it was "bad" for the camera to leave it coked for long periods.
Although, i suppose if you use a battery winder, it does just that.
I would imagine that in circa 1975, you did not give a shit about stuff like that.?
If the camera needed to be serviced (assuming you were a professional photographer) it was all part of the job.
Farmers and Ranchers probably drive their Ford F-250 A LOT harder than the average pick-up truck owner does.?

David A. Goldfarb · Sep 5, 2017

CMoore said:
.....how can you accidentally 2x expose.?
Is it possible to trip the shutter without winding the film over.?
Thank You

I forgot this is the 35mm forum. I often shoot large format cameras with uncoupled rollfilm backs, so it's quite easy to double expose in that situation.

MattKing · Sep 5, 2017

CMoore said:
.....how can you accidentally 2x expose.?
Is it possible to trip the shutter without winding the film over.?
Thank You

Not all roll film cameras or film backs have double exposure prevention.
The backs for the original Mamiya RB67 Pro are an example.
And it isn't just older cameras this applies to. My newest camera was originally purchased new from the manufacturer in the spring of this year.
It is a multi-format pinhole camera, uses the numbering on the 120 film backing paper to keep track of exposures and has no double exposure prevention whatsoever.
Here is an example of what it can do (after significant re-sizing)

AgX · Sep 5, 2017

OlyMan said:
Some say that with especially fully mechanical cameras, leaving the shutter cocked for long periods is not good for the springs in the mechanism.

I consider this a myth concerning practical terms.

Yes, there is a setting of a spring during static load.
But this is strongest within the first hours. (Think of a logarithmical curve.)

E. von Hoegh · Sep 5, 2017

AgX said:
I consider this a myth concerning practical terms.

Yes, there is a setting of a spring during static load.
But this is strongest within the first hours. (Think of a logarithmical curve.)

This is correct.
I never wind on, for several reasons. With an rf, it serves as a reminder to remove the lens cap. With slrs, I can advance the film before I get the camera to my eye, so missing "the shot of a lifetime" is not likely.

RalphLambrecht · Sep 5, 2017

Sirius Glass said:
Me too.

Hasselblad designed its lenses to remain cocked for long periods of time and they recommended to always advance the film and cock the shutter. The dark slide is used to keep the camera from firing while not being used.

I do the same as Dirius since Hasselblad does recommend it. The only disadvantage I can see is that a certain piece of the film rolls bend in one position potentially for a long time and may suffer from a bend but this has never been a problem in day- to-day usage, as soon this bend reaches the image gate area, it is flattened by the back plate again.

Sirius Glass · Sep 5, 2017

Sirius Glass said:
Me too.

Hasselblad designed its lenses to remain cocked for long periods of time and they recommended to always advance the film and cock the shutter. The dark slide is used to keep the camera from firing while not being used.

mrosenlof said:
I wind on after exposure.

I have seen camera manuals that tell not to leave the camera cocked overnight. I have also read (on the internet, so it must be true!) that proper springs don't weaken/break if sitting in either their relaxed or tensioned states. It's when their state changes that springs might do unhappy things. I'm not a mechanical engineer so I can't verify if that's true or not.

I'm pretty sure my Hasselblad manual says it's fine to store lenses and bodies in their cocked state. Pretty sure... Of course trying to mount an uncocked lens on a Hasselblad body is definitely worse than keeping it cocked.

All that said, if a camera is empty, I make a weak attempt to store it un-cocked. But don't fret over it much.

winger said:
I usually wind right after the shot because I've missed shots when I haven't. But if I use my old mechanical Pentax after not using it for awhile I sometimes forget. Then I grimace when I try to shoot and it doesn't fire. Which reminds me that it probably could use a nice walk. And I nearly always wind my Holgas after shooting so I don't get a double exposure. If I intend to get one, then I usually do it soon after or I leave a post-it on it.

Theo Sulphate said:
For Hasselblad, their "natural state" seems to favor being cocked. The motorized Hasselblads always recock after each exposure. When Hasselblad lenses are shipped to retailers, the lenses are cocked and they may sit in the store for years. At the very least this reduces the chance of a jam by trying to mount/unmount a lens and body.

Mamiya RB67 favors being cocked, too, but it has a safety interlock to prevent a body/lens jam due to one being uncocked.

Aside from missing photographs because the camera was not cocked, leaving Hasselblad lenses uncocked can lead to damaging both the camera and the lens if one attempts to mount an uncocked lens on a camera or any lens on an uncocked body. Additionally, if one does not cock the camera after the photograph, the mirror is up and one cannot see through the camera.

CMoore · Sep 5, 2017

David A. Goldfarb said:
I forgot this is the 35mm forum. I often shoot large format cameras with uncoupled rollfilm backs, so it's quite easy to double expose in that situation.

Try paying attention to what Forum You are in next time.
Do you have any idea how Valuable my time is.?
Yeah.....sorry.
I forgot that some of you guys use a Real Camera.

barzune · Sep 5, 2017

Theo Sulphate said:
Over the years I've asked three mechanical engineers whether it's better to have springs under tension or not and each one has told me it doesn't matter: spring fatigue is caused by repeated flexing, not by one static state or the other.

I like this idea, it makes sense.
There never seemed to be a comfortable compromise between my training to store an SLR uncocked, but also to store my RB fully cocked.
No expert, me, I do as I was told,...but it did seem funny.

Thanks, Theo. I know that what I've been doing for the past 50 years hasn't broken any cameras, but now I can quit obsessing about the springs.

Mainecoonmaniac · Sep 5, 2017

I wind right after firing the shutter. I always had those "Oh shit I missed the shot because I didn't cock shutter" moments. For me, it's a reflex. Index finger on the shutter release and thumb on the film advance.

Theo Sulphate · Sep 5, 2017

With the RB67 there is the added enjoyment of interacting with your camera more: after tripping the shutter you wind the film lever (on the back) and cock the shutter lever (on the body). Even if you don't, the Pro S and Pro SD have interlocks to prevent a double exposure. It's also easy to make an intentional double exposure.

There's a motorized back, but it has become instinctive for many RB users to operate both levers and it's quick enough anyway.

Hasselblad is best for motorized medium format work ...and the sound is like music.

AgX · Sep 6, 2017

Theo Sulphate said:
Over the years I've asked three mechanical engineers whether it's better to have springs under tension or not and each one has told me it doesn't matter: spring fatigue is caused by repeated flexing, not by one static state or the other.

These engineers were ignorant, strict on terminolgy or wanted to put it easy for.

There is both, the effect of static pressure and of load/unload cycles. But as hinted at above I consider at least the former of no practical impact at cameras.

CMoore · Sep 6, 2017

AgX said:
These engineers were ignorant, strict on terminolgy or wanted to put it easy for.

There is both, the effect of static pressure and of load/unload cycles. But as hinted at above I consider at least the former of no practical impact at cameras.

It does seem counter-intuitive...but i am NO Engineer.
But......are they saying, all else equal..... if you take two springs, and looked at them 30 years later,.....The spring that just sat in its "normal" state.....it would be no "better", or no more to spec, than the other spring that was stretched to its working limit for the same 30 years.?

MattKing · Sep 6, 2017

If you are leaving your lenses and shutters both cocked and un-used for 30 years, spring tension is the least of of your worries.
Exercise is what they need!

AgX · Sep 6, 2017

If you take a virgin spring of common make and put it under pressure for some hours at a load that will make it relief completely if loaded only for seconds it indeed will show at lab measuring a degradation.
In practice that means that leaving a camera cocked for just one night you would likely introduce more degradation than any leaving it uncocked for the next years would have counteracted.

That does not keep me from turning my lenses regularly to counteract the glass flowing in one direction...

Theo Sulphate · Sep 6, 2017

AgX said:
These engineers were ignorant, strict on terminolgy or wanted to put it easy for. [sic]
...

Considering that they worked on products that were worth tens of millions of dollars and had to function perfectly for at least ten years, I trust their statements.

(maybe that's not good, because their statements imply my shutters should be either cocked or uncocked, but infrequently operated!)

I do not think the situation you describe above is the same situation that applies to camera shutters.

As for glass flow ...I didn't think about that. I am going to turn all my cameras upside-down tonight.

dmr · Sep 6, 2017

David A. Goldfarb said:
I wind after shooting to avoid accidental double exposures.

I'm in the habit of winding immediately before a shot. Habit for 40+ years with 35mm RF and SLRs. However, when I ended up with a TLR without double-exposure prevention I ended up with a few doubles. One actually came out quite good, surprisingly.

Edit: Here's the one I was talking about ...

R.Gould · Sep 6, 2017

It depends what camera I am using, for instance if I am using a folder for mf, or my Rolleicord or Microcord that need the shutter cocking before taking a photo then I will wind on straight after taking the pic, if I am using my Rolleiflex then I wind on before taking the shot, with the Compur shutter in this camera you need to set 500 before cocking the shutter, with 35mm then some of my folders need the shutter cocking after winding, so I will wind on after the shot, with others I wind on before taking the shot as the instructions from them all say do not keep the shutter cocked as damage may result,with my Leica 3f the instructions state that when storeing the camera then set the shutter to 30 and uncocked, I have no instructions for my Canon 7 but I assume the same applies, every instruction for every old camera say the shutter should not be cocked all the time but set just before taking the shot, I assume the makers know their own cameras and who am I to argue? so I always make sure the shutters are kept uncocked other than when taking a photo

guangong · Sep 6, 2017

Wouldn't the quality of the spring a difference in the long run? The reason we paid a lot more for our Hassy, Leica,Nikon, Rolleiflex, etc. than for a Petri, etc. was the superior quality of materials used in their construction. Not being an engineer I feel free to ask a dumb question.
As for my winding habits, usually advance film after exposure (see no other practical method when using winding knobs on Barnack Leicas and Contax and Contessa) on all cameras. Never gave much thought about how I store cameras but realize I release shutters before placing on shelf. Those with separate cocking mechanisms such as Contessa or Super Ikonta B I try to cock just before exposure but have no qualms about folding cocked shutter to use later.
Probably no hard and fast rule, but each photographer has his individual quirks.

jim10219 · Sep 6, 2017

E. von Hoegh said:
This is correct.
I never wind on, for several reasons. With an rf, it serves as a reminder to remove the lens cap. With slrs, I can advance the film before I get the camera to my eye, so missing "the shot of a lifetime" is not likely.

Same here. On my SLR's (without motor drive), I cock the camera as I'm bringing it up to my eye. It's just a simple thumb swipe, and doesn't slow me down any. It also prevents accidental shots of the back of a lens cap or blurry feet or whatever. On my rangefinders, I still have to measure the light, check the speed and aperture, as well as focus the lens, so the time it takes to cock the shutter doesn't really matter. None of my rangefinders have any electronics, by the way. Then again, I shoot a lot of large format, so I'm used to the idea of photography taking a while. Whenever I think I'm going to be in a situation where I might need to take an immediate shot without time to think, I'm using my DSLR. It excels at spray and pray style techniques.

99.9% of the time when I miss a "shot of a lifetime", it's because I don't even have a camera on me.

OlyMan · Sep 6, 2017

Really interesting to read the - as expected - different views. I had wondered if winding on directly after a shot was an 'anachronism' from the days where it was common for a camera's wind-on mechanism to be very much distinct from the shutter-mechanism, so one would instinctively wind on to avoid double exposure. When those photographers bought cameras where the two actions were linked, they carried on with the habit, and in turn this was adopted by photographers who copied the habits of their elders. But clearly there's more to it than that, for example I didn't know that some cameras are designed to be stored one way or the other (cocked or uncocked), as specified by their maker. I don't really have much experience of cameras where the shutter is in the removable lens.

michr · Sep 6, 2017

I think it depends on the type of camera I'm using. For a camera which cocks the shutter when I wind, I'll leave the camera unwound when I put the camera away and wind on when I pick it up again. An added benefit is the film won't go slack sitting in the camera, and will be freshly tensioned with that wind. That way there's no tension in the shutter when its sitting, and there's no accidental triggering of the camera if it were in a bag or when I pick it up. For cameras with shutters that cock independently of the wind action, I'll wind on when I put it up so that I don't have the chance of a double exposure. But again when I put up the camera, the shutter is uncocked. For film tensioning purposes, I crank back on the rewind knob a bit when I pick up the camera again. The worst that could happen is I forget about my system and wind on when I pick up the camera after a number of weeks, missing out a frame, but that's better than ruining one with a double exposure.

Ko.Fe. · Sep 6, 2017

SLRs are for take my time, accurate framing for me. I like to advance the film, frame and take it. Then look for something else.
I do have rangefinder cameras for quickies and only for rare to me street photography. Then with my double stroke Leica I have to rewind well in advance

But if I have to rewind quick, I know how to do it quick. Here is my video showing it:

E. von Hoegh · Sep 6, 2017

R.Gould said:
It depends what camera I am using, for instance if I am using a folder for mf, or my Rolleicord or Microcord that need the shutter cocking before taking a photo then I will wind on straight after taking the pic, if I am using my Rolleiflex then I wind on before taking the shot, with the Compur shutter in this camera you need to set 500 before cocking the shutter, with 35mm then some of my folders need the shutter cocking after winding, so I will wind on after the shot, with others I wind on before taking the shot as the instructions from them all say do not keep the shutter cocked as damage may result,with my Leica 3f the instructions state that when storeing the camera then set the shutter to 30 and uncocked, I have no instructions for my Canon 7 but I assume the same applies, every instruction for every old camera say the shutter should not be cocked all the time but set just before taking the shot, I assume the makers know their own cameras and who am I to argue? so I always make sure the shutters are kept uncocked other than when taking a photo

The instructions for my Nikon F2a say not to leave the shutter cocked longer than overnight.

I love the endless argument, by people who know little about physics, metallurgy, mechanics, or cameras, over how springs behave and why.(insert sarcasm smiley)

Ces1um · Sep 6, 2017

I only advance the frame when I'm ready to take the next shot. Most of my shots are slow and deliberate though. None of this "decisive moment" stuff for me for my style of shooting. If I really need something fast though for some reason I'll just shoot it on polaroid. Press the red button and I'm done.

To wind-on or not to wind-on

CMoore

David A. Goldfarb

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MattKing

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AgX

E. von Hoegh

RalphLambrecht

Sirius Glass

CMoore

barzune

Mainecoonmaniac

Theo Sulphate

AgX

CMoore

MattKing

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AgX

Theo Sulphate

dmr

R.Gould

guangong

jim10219

OlyMan

michr

Ko.Fe.

E. von Hoegh

Ces1um

To wind-on or not to wind-on

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