To Query Kodak (U.S.) on Chemistry Product

Has anyone been successful sending them an online query as a hobbyist (rather than a business)? If so, please let me know the path to contact them online with a question. I found their website to be a frustrating endless-loop of possibilities, even tried Alaris (who referred me back to Kodak in USA with a link that kept me in Alaris). I'd prefer to not contact them by phone because of a hearing issue; besides if I can put my question and reason for asking into print then it'll not get compromised if they need to forward it to another department. Any help is very much appreciated.

Which chemistry product?

I’ve ever received anything more than an automated response with links to pages that didn’t answer the questions.

You, quite possibly, would learn more by posting your question here.

MattKing said:

Which chemistry product?

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BrianShaw said:

I’ve [N]ever received anything more than an automated response with links to pages that didn’t answer the questions.
You, quite possibly, would learn more by posting your question here.

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Normally I prefer to query a manufacturer directly to get their authoritative answer to my questions, then post it here for the benefit of the members, but in this instance I have no choice. So here's my query to Kodak:

I have Kodak's Master Darkroom Dataguide for Black and White, dated 1964. It shows the Hypo Test Solution HT-2 that calls for Acetic Acid 28% (which I believe is NLA). My question is can I use Kodak Indicator Stop Bath instead?

HT-2 is their product for testing the amount of hypo remaining in film or paper. Unless you're hellbent on mixing it yourself, the Formulary sells Residual Hypo Test. One bottle will last years. Same methodology, one droplet, set a timer, inspect for staining. Makes fiber wash times an exercise in accuracy, not arbitrary guessing. Saves me a lot of water.

You can use any acetic acid solution you can find, but have to adjust the quantity used accordingly.

silveror0 said:

I have Kodak's Master Darkroom Dataguide for Black and White, dated 1964. It shows the Hypo Test Solution HT-2 that calls for Acetic Acid 28% (which I believe is NLA). My question is can I use Kodak Indicator Stop Bath instead?

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I would say no, because the indicator stop bath contains an indicator dye.

silveror0 said:

It shows the Hypo Test Solution HT-2 that calls for Acetic Acid 28%

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Here I can get 25% acetic acid at grocery stores. Likely you will get it there at your side too.

As neither version of Kodak manufactures or sells any black and white photographic paper, I doubt that they still have any reliable information that would answer your question.
And as neither version of Kodak actually manufactures the Indicator Stop Bath, I doubt that either Kodak would have any reliable way to test it out.
There might still be people who are employed by one of the Kodak's who would, as individuals, have historical knowledge. You might want to try sending an email query to profilm@kodakalaris.com. You may here back from the part of Kodak Alaris that deals with the black and white chemicals that are made for them.

M Carter said:

...the Formulary sells Residual Hypo Test. One bottle will last years...

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I had totally forgotten about the Formulary as a possible source. Looking at their tech info, however, they say its shelf life is "in excess of nine months provided that it is stored in a dark bottle and away from light." That's a bit shy of "years." B&H sells it at the same price but considerably lower shipping.

MattKing said:

...You might want to try sending an email query to profilm@kodakalaris.com...

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I sent them an email this morning and got the response that they're closed for Thanksgiving until Monday, so I'll see what they have to say then.

Well... I've got a Formulary Residual Hypo Test kit, and some Kodak Indicator Stop Bath.

I guess I could try it and see what happens.

The dye might be a problem. Or it might wash out.

Your question is not about a current product but rather a formula that was first published much further back than 1964.

My prediction is that is you called or emailed Kodak this is the response you would get:


Household white vinegar is available in several different concentrations, depending on where you live. I would not substitute Indicator Stop Bath since it is not just acetic acid and indicator but may contain other things and there is nothing in the SDS about the concentration of the acid as well.

A quick check shows that glacial acetic acid is available online and not terribly expensive in the US. I don’t think it’s an exotic chemical is it? Hopefully it would be available in the UK and dilutions could be mixed as needed, if the actual hypo check or 28% acetic are not available.

silveror0 said:

I had totally forgotten about the Formulary as a possible source. Looking at their tech info, however, they say its shelf life is "in excess of nine months provided that it is stored in a dark bottle and away from light." That's a bit shy of "years." B&H sells it at the same price but considerably lower shipping.

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I checked with our Photrio resident PE, who said proper storage will be good for several years - he's engineered products for the Formulary.

But it's like twelve bucks, so even if you dump it once a year... it's still a bargain. I can't imagine fiber printing without the stuff, especially since I have stashes of old Ektalure and other papers that seem really hard to wash totally (I have a pack of Ektalure that feels like triple-weight, with an almost watercolor paper texture, stuff takes forever to get clean, even with TF-5).

It takes washing from an arbitrary guesswork where overkill is required, to a known entity. I even use it on film if it's a roll I expect to print from.

M Carter said:

I checked with our Photrio resident PE, who said proper storage will be good for several years - he's engineered products for the Formulary.
I also totally forgot to ask PE (I don't have a memory problem but apparently I DO have a problem with recall). He's definitely a qualified resource, he got me to switch to Liquidol print developer because of its extremely long life.

But it's like twelve bucks, so even if you dump it once a year... it's still a bargain...

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Obviously it does last a long time for you; it's now up to $23.

28% is 3 parts glacial to 8 parts water. Always add the acid to the water, not the other way around. This should be in your master photoguide. I mix my own Hypo Test solution, Silver Nitrate etc. Someone out there comment on using Rapid Selenium toner. It works for residual Hypo too.

I use Kodak Hypo Clearing Agent on everything even film and RC paper (I know I'm nuts) And I have no idea who makes powdered Kodak chemicals, looks like all the liquids are coming from Germany (Tetenal?) I've still got pre-apocalypse, antebellum Dektol, XTOL, HCA etc.
Mike

mshchem said:

... Someone out there comment on using Rapid Selenium toner. It works for residual Hypo too...

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No, it only works for residual silver halides.

the final HT-2 solution has a 3.5% acetic acid content (less than vinegar...). How you achieve that is immaterial. 500ml of 7% distilled white vinegar + 500ml water plus the silver nitrate will get you the same thing. If you have 6% vinegar, then its approx. 588ml distilled vinegar + 412ml water plus the silver nitrate. Just do the math if you have a different percentage solution of acetic acid to start with. All that matters if the final dilution.

Doremus

To mix 28% acetic acid take 3 parts of glacial acetic acid and add it to 8 parts of water.

And NO you cannot use indicator stopbath as the dye color will interfere with the test.

Anon Ymous said:

No, it only works for residual silver halides.

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Correct, incomplete fixing. I confused selenium with senility

OK, I'm totally confused.
KODAK: What do they actually do? What do they manufacture?
KODAK Alaris: Ditto, plus what is the difference between the two? ( Other than some obscure definition of share distribution and suchlike ).
Does KODAK ( in any identity) make film, paper or chemistry that is labelled KODAK?
If I see a product labelled KODAK, whatever it is, can I believe that it really is made by KODAK?

Seriously, I've searched through the GOOGLEworld, through this and other photo forums (fora) and anywhere that could
be a source of real information, and all I find are strange legal and accounting interpretations.

Does anybody actually know?

D.

barzune said:

OK, I'm totally confused.
KODAK: What do they actually do? What do they manufacture?
KODAK Alaris: Ditto, plus what is the difference between the two? ( Other than some obscure definition of share distribution and suchlike ).
Does KODAK ( in any identity) make film, paper or chemistry that is labelled KODAK?
If I see a product labelled KODAK, whatever it is, can I believe that it really is made by KODAK?

Seriously, I've searched through the GOOGLEworld, through this and other photo forums (fora) and anywhere that could
be a source of real information, and all I find are strange legal and accounting interpretations.

Does anybody actually know?

D.

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Eastman Kodak manufactures and markets Kodak branded motion picture film, plus a whole bunch of non-photographic related stuff, most of which relates to the high volume commercial printing industry.
I believe that Eastman Kodak designs and markets chemicals for processing motion picture film. The actual manufacture is handled by others (such as the fully independent Eastman Chemical).
Eastman Kodak is now entirely oriented toward B2B operation - they sell to businesses, and let those businesses deal with end users
Eastman Kodak manufactures but does not market Kodak still films - all of the production is sold on a wholesale basis to Kodak Alaris.
Kodak Alaris has the worldwide marketing rights for Kodak still films, Kodak photo-chemicals, Kodak photographic colour paper. Kodak Alaris also manufactures the Kodak colour photographic paper.
It is Kodak Alaris that sells most of the non-movie products that we are interested in here to distributors, who in turn sell to retailers or commercial users. Kodak Alaris is the source for manufacturer's support for those products - Eastman Kodak just manufacturers to order.
Kodak Alaris also obtained some valuable land and factory assets as well as some technology relating to document scanning as a result of a settlement of UK pension claims arising out of the Eastman Kodak bankruptcy. The terms of that settlement required the UK Kodak pension fund to pay $600 Million USD to the bankruptcy trustee.

MattKing said:

Kodak Alaris also manufactures the Kodak colour photographic paper.

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I believe at this point all color paper is made by Carestream Health at the former Kodak coating facility in Windsor, Colorado

Prof_Pixel said:

I believe at this point all color paper is made by Carestream Health at the former Kodak coating facility in Windsor, Colorado

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As I understand it, the UK Pension Fund/Kodak Alaris received as part of the bankruptcy at least a shared ownership interest (possibly by way of leasehold) in the premises in Colorado that Carestream operates.
They may actually be Carestream's landlord.

Thank you, Matt and Prof Pixel.
So, to summarise, with respect to amateur photography,
Kodak (Eastman) actually manufactures consumer still film, both B&W and Colour;
Kodak Alaris does not manufacture anything, and;
Kodak (of any colour) does not manufacture any chemicals or photo paper sold under their name.

I hope I've got it right.

D.