To presoak or not to presoak

dustym · Jan 26, 2006

I presoaked a 120 batch last night prior to using precysol ef I left standing in 24 degrees water for 10 min I did not use a presoak agent just water and when I tipped away I was amazed at the amount and density of the tinted water that was disgarded. I then carried out the process with precysol and
was extremly pleased with the results, I cant give you a technical breakdown
but the negs looked great. My only comment is that this initial quantity of disgarable chemical must in same way hinder the meat and potatos of the development acting on the gelatin or Im I wrong.

markbb · Jan 26, 2006

What you saw was probably the anti-halation layer being washed off. what film was it?

gnashings · Jan 26, 2006

Much like with developers, you will see a variety of colours after a pre-soak depending on the film in question. From what I understand, pre-soak is a must with the "old technology" films like Efke, but I have also heard very positive reports from users of Tmax. Apparently it goes a long way towards making the purple tinge go away.

Peter

Steve Sherman · Jan 26, 2006

I always presoak for 5 minutes in water. Film needs to accept the developer in an even and uniform manner. As my mentor Jack Holowitz says "if you do not presoak it is like wiping up a wet spill with a dry sponge" the film being the dry sponge.

Hope this settles a discussion whether or not to presoak, it seems pretty obvious by this analogy.

Steve Sherman

jim appleyard · Jan 26, 2006

I'm going to miss the lovely jade-green color that came out with me pre-soak of APX 25 .

Neal · Jan 26, 2006

Dear Dustym,

To the best of my knowledge, none of the big manufacturers advise a presoak. If the anti-halation layer interfered with the development process, I'm certain Kodak/Fuji/Ilford would have advised a presoak by now. From the threads I've read (I wonder how often this has come up<g>), if it works for you, why not?

As for the sponge analogy, try soaking a sponge and then wiping up a spill without wringing it out. Analogies are tricky that way.

Neal Wydra

antielectrons · Jan 26, 2006

I trust Ilford, they have decades of experience with film processing. Indeed they were making and selling film before I was even born. They recommend not to presoak.

dustym · Jan 26, 2006

Im Using Foma 100 in 120 format and your are correct in the antihalation I could not bring the term to mind, I would not have presoaked the film usually, it was in the guidance notes for the use Prescysol ef , and as I said before I was amazed at the amount of this additive had quite densly diluted the clean water, this may not be the case for the more modern approach to film production now, I just spoke as I found.

Stoo Batchelor · Jan 26, 2006

If a film is standing at room temperature, say 19 to 20 degrees. And you pour a liquid on it that is 24 degrees, couldn't the shock to the emulsion cause it to reticulate. Personally I feel that it can't be too good for the film, so a presoak, say the first at 22 degrees, then the next at 24 will bring it up to developer temperature. Of course if you are developing at 20 degrees then the problem is not there, But withPrescysol 24, is the norm. Just my thoughts.

Regards

Stoo

Lee Shively · Jan 26, 2006

I used to presoak for about 30 seconds but later read in Ilford literature that it was not recommended. I haven't presoaked since. I don't really think it's of much benefit except for maybe preconditioning the film to the chemical temperature. The anti-halation backing is just a backing and doesn't appear to affect the emulsion area of the film. After the fix, I use a wash aid and it clears any remainder of the backing.

Have you tried after-soaking the film? Following the developer, move the film to a tank of tempered water and let it set for several minutes. I have done this in the past with pushed film and it does seem to increase detail in the shadows a bit without burning up the bright areas.

titrisol · Jan 26, 2006

Yes, Foma films do that.
Blue tint that looks lke the toilet bowl cleaners.

dustym said:
Im Using Foma 100 in 120 format and your are correct in the antihalation I could not bring the term to mind, I would not have presoaked the film usually, it was in the guidance notes for the use Prescysol ef , and as I said before I was amazed at the amount of this additive had quite densly diluted the clean water, this may not be the case for the more modern approach to film production now, I just spoke as I found.

Upton and Upton say that presoak is not recommended by film companies because it lengthens the devloping time and introduces a variable thay cannot account for. But if you standardize as part of your process I don't see how it can be harmful.
It eliminates any dust particles that maybe on the film, a couple of good raps help dislodge bubbles and the antihalataions are generally disposed of.

jim appleyard · Jan 26, 2006

titrisol said:
Upton and Upton say that presoak is not recommended by film companies because it lengthens the devloping time and introduces a variable thay cannot account for. But if you standardize as part of your process...QUOTE]

Probably *THE* way to pre-soak is with didtilled water.

Allen Friday · Jan 26, 2006

I would not make too much of the fact that when you presoak and dump out the water it is black, green, purple, pink or some other color. It is just the backing layer of the film. An interesting thing happens if you add developer to this--the color disappears. Try it on your next roll. Save the colored water and then dump your developer into it when you finish that stage of processing.

By the way, I do presoak. It is part of my routine and is recommended for Jobo processors.

titrisol · Jan 26, 2006

It probably is, but I don;t see why.

jim appleyard said:
Probably *THE* way to pre-soak is with didtilled water.

I have used presoak for ages now, using tap water. The rationale for me at the time was to avoid having air bubbles with short development times.
Now is just my routine....

Photo Engineer · Jan 26, 2006

I have been using a presoak for virtually my entire career in photography. It is the best thing you can do with film and paper processed in drums from the standpoint of pre-tempering and pre-wetting to promote uniformity.

The presoak helps eliminate air bubbles and decreases streaking.

The only place/time I don't use a presoak is with tray processing of prints and hanger processing of sheet film.

The colored water contains the AH dyes and the acutance dyes, both of which are harmless either way during processing.

PE

Gerald Koch · Jan 26, 2006

I have never presoaked and have never experienced any problems either from the antihalation dyes or from air bells. I do rap the tank several times at the start of development. I believe the film manufacturers when they do not recommend the practice.

Dave Miller · Jan 26, 2006

Prescysol EF is not temperature sensitive to any great extent. Peter recommends 24 deg, but I have used 20 and 22 without detrement. Presoaking is a personal preference, but does no harm.

Lee L · Jan 26, 2006

I lived in Germany in '82-'83 and my landlady reversed her agreement to allow me to use the bathroom for film processing after my first roll. (No substantive reason given.) So I was relegated to a cold, unheated basement. I had to purchase a Jobo CPE-2 and ran my Panatomic-X in Rodinal 1+100 at (the then recommended) slow rotation without a pre-soak. I got huge density variations due to standing waves (you could clearly see the flow pattern from the spokes of the 2501 reels) and no good advice on how to avoid the problem, so I quit using the Jobo except for color prints. I had similar problems with 4x5 film, enough to make them useless, but not as prominent. When Jobo brought out the expert drums at the price of my whole kit, which also required a much more expensive processor, I just got angry.

To the point: in the last year I got hold of the revised Jobo recommendations, fast rotation speed and a 5 minute pre-soak, and I finally tried it last week with 1+100 Rodinal and Efke 25 and got what look like evenly developed negs. (I shot "flat fields" with an ExpoDisc at multiple densities and some regular outdoor scenes with skies.) So yes, a pre-soak can make a definite difference, and you should do what works for your circumstances.

If anyone has a problem with the parameter changes (Panatomic-X to Efke 25) in this "experiment", please send a brick of frozen Panatomic-X 135-36 and I'll overcome your objections with a more scientifically sound multiple observation test.

end of parenthetical remark test.

Lee

jim appleyard · Jan 26, 2006

Lee L please send a brick of frozen Panatomic-X 135-36 and I'll overcome your objections with a more scientifically sound multiple observation test. Lee[/QUOTE said:
I have several bricks. How many would you like?

Lee L · Jan 26, 2006

jim appleyard said:
I have several bricks. How many would you like?

P.M. sent.

Lee

John Bartley · Jan 26, 2006

Photo Engineer said:
The presoak helps eliminate air bubbles and decreases streaking.

PE

I have had (on rare occasions) what appears to be a drop of "some liquid" which has run across my negative during developing. Is this what is meant by "streaking"?

Photo Engineer · Jan 26, 2006

John Bartley said:
I have had (on rare occasions) what appears to be a drop of "some liquid" which has run across my negative during developing. Is this what is meant by "streaking"?

It sounds like one form of streaking.

It happens when the developer is not spread quickly and evenly over the film or paper surface and can lead to positive or negative density defects.

It rarely takes place in film in tank development, but often in drum development if there is no pre-wet.

You can simulate this in the light by pouring a streak of developer down the center of a sheet of film and then dipping it in the developer. You will get a dark streak down the center part before the remainder is at the same density.

You can observe the bubble defects caused by air bells by dipping a piece of film in a cup of static freshly run tap water and leaving it for a few minutes. Air bubbles will form in the water and on the film. By tapping the film, the bubbles dislodge and float away. If this happens in a prewet, no harm is done, but if this happens in the developer, you get white spects called air bells. Often, this was attributed to emulsion defects caused by an acid stop bath, but a stop bath is actually harmless in this regard.

PE

Don Mills · Jan 26, 2006

Am I correct in assuming that a presoak in water would not be a good idea when using two solution developers?

titrisol · Jan 26, 2006

You are correct!

Don Mills said:
Am I correct in assuming that a presoak in water would not be a good idea when using two solution developers?

pentaxuser · Jan 26, 2006

Stoo Batchelor said:
If a film is standing at room temperature, say 19 to 20 degrees. And you pour a liquid on it that is 24 degrees, couldn't the shock to the emulsion cause it to reticulate. Personally I feel that it can't be too good for the film, so a presoak, say the first at 22 degrees, then the next at 24 will bring it up to developer temperature. Of course if you are developing at 20 degrees then the problem is not there, But withPrescysol 24, is the norm. Just my thoughts.

Regards

Stoo

I have only come close to a reticulation situation once. It was while I was on a City and Guilds course at a college. It was after the development stage and at the stop bath stage which at the college was taken care of by a water rinse. With 20 students water was easier and cheaper than a stop bath.

Anyway I mistakenly turned on the "hot" tap and water at probably 40 degrees centrigrade at least ran into the film tank for at least a couple of minutes before I realised what was happening. I fully expected reticulation as did the tutor but the film was unaffected. It was HP5+.

My guess is that film even "old" film like HP5+ is more resilient than we imagine. If this resistance to reticulation is peculiar to HP5+ then my congratulations to Ilford for a very tough film.

I suspect that film is tougher than maybe we give it credit for.

Pentaxuser

To presoak or not to presoak

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