To Jobo or not ?

I'm very disappointed with a lab where I develop slides.

The other lab is in another city.
Expenses when I develop in that lab:
- driving to the lab and back is approx $15 and 2 hours, and another $15 and 2 hours a few days later when I take my film back. So the total cost is $30 and 4 hours.
- development of one roll is $7.

If I start to develop at home I will pay:
- Jobo CPE-2 Plus Processor $ 674.95 (B&H B&H #JOCPE2PX)
- Jobo Two-Reel Film Tank $36.95 (B&H #1520)
- Tetenal E-6 Three Bath Kit - 5 Liters (B&H #TEE63B5LK)

Questions:
1. What else should I buy to complete the kit for developing at home?
2. What I save or how much pay more, if I develop slides at home? I shoot approximately 30-50 rolls/year.
3. Is there a better chemistry for Fuji Astia and Velvia on B&H?
4. Should I spend much more and buy CPP-2 Plus Processor?
5. I don't understand how to keep constant temperature of first chemicals if I use only stainless steel developing tank (no processor).

Please advice.

Thanks!
Evgeny

You don't state what formats you currently shoot or might shoot. Depending on that the answers might change. Also how big is your batch size? How many rolls would you want to run on average? Worse case?

You don't need to buy a new processor. You can often find a used one for a fair bit less. You do face the risk of it breaking down.

There is even less reason to buy new roll film tanks. Used tanks are normally a fraction of new. You might want new reels but tanks are hard to break. Not impossible.

You'll need small things like graduates.

You might want to consider the Kodak 5litre kit.

Evgeny said:

If I start to develop at home I will pay:
- Jobo CPE-2 Plus Processor $ 674.95 (B&H B&H #JOCPE2PX)
- Jobo Two-Reel Film Tank $36.95 (B&H #1520)
- Tetenal E-6 Three Bath Kit - 5 Liters (B&H #TEE63B5LK)

Questions:
1. What else should I buy to complete the kit for developing at home?
2. What I save or how much pay more, if I develop slides at home? I shoot approximately 30-50 rolls/year.
3. Is there a better chemistry for Fuji Astia and Velvia on B&H?
4. Should I spend much more and buy CPP-2 Plus Processor?
5. I don't understand how to keep constant temperature of first chemicals if I use only stainless steel developing tank (no processor).

Click to expand...

Evgeny, these days I use a Jobo CPE-2 for colour reversal, and it works absolutely fine. To be specific:

1. Assuming you already do B&W and have all the usual stuff (darkbag/darkroom, graduates, etc.) that should be all you need to get started off the top of my head.
2. urgh, your mileage may vary... Last time I worked it out I think it cost me something like £1/roll to develop E6 myself, with Kodak 6 bath.
3. If you're using a Jobo, there's no reason not to use the full Kodak 6-bath kit. It doesn't take much longer than 3 bath, is marginally less tedious, and actually I find it easier because there's only one short temperature critical wash stage (rather than 2 long ones with 3 bath.) If you're doing it without a Jobo (see method below) then Tetenal 3 bath is fine.
4. Personally I don't see a reason to.
5. See my guide to DIY E6 for one method; this is how I did it before I got a Jobo.

Good luck!

Nick Zentena said:

You don't state what formats you currently shoot or might shoot. Depending on that the answers might change. Also how big is your batch size? How many rolls would you want to run on average?
...
You might want to consider the Kodak 5litre kit.

Click to expand...

I shoot 35mm. Usually I develop 2 rolls.
Thanks

I think you'll end up wasting a little bit of chemicals. Would be better if you processed in slightly bigger batches. But that's the only issue I see. If you don't mind the higher chemical use then no problem.

tim_walls said:

Evgeny, these days I use a Jobo CPE-2 for colour reversal, and it works absolutely fine. To be specific:

1. Assuming you already do B&W and have all the usual stuff (darkbag/darkroom, graduates, etc.) that should be all you need to get started off the top of my head.
2. urgh, your mileage may vary... Last time I worked it out I think it cost me something like £1/roll to develop E6 myself, with Kodak 6 bath.
3. If you're using a Jobo, there's no reason not to use the full Kodak 6-bath kit. It doesn't take much longer than 3 bath, is marginally less tedious, and actually I find it easier because there's only one short temperature critical wash stage (rather than 2 long ones with 3 bath.) If you're doing it without a Jobo (see method below) then Tetenal 3 bath is fine.
4. Personally I don't see a reason to.
5. See my guide to DIY E6 for one method; this is how I did it before I got a Jobo.

Good luck!

Click to expand...

Tim,
I read your article before I found this thread.

3. I buy everything on-line from B&H. B&H cannot ship this Kodak 6-bath kit, it can only be bought in the store.
I think I will need to buy two addition bottles for the CPE-2 #4065 and may be something else for the 6-bath procedure, I don't know what exactly. If I buy individual bottles, what are their product codes? I want to implement a 6-bath procedure, but I'm a bit frustrated.
Also, can you recommend the Lift for CPE-2 Plus Processor for ease of processing?

--- just edited to say, that I cannot buy Kodak Color developer on-line at all. It can only be bought in the store. Completely frustrated.

Nick Zentena said:

I think you'll end up wasting a little bit of chemicals. Would be better if you processed in slightly bigger batches. But that's the only issue I see. If you don't mind the higher chemical use then no problem.

Click to expand...

Nick, suppose I can store exposed but not developed films in refrigirator, and then develop 6 rolls. Should I buy two tanks or reuse liquids in one tank (2 rolls + then 2 rolls + and then 2 rolls)?

Re. the Kodak 5 litre kit

Evgeny said:

I shoot 35mm. Usually I develop 2 rolls.
Thanks

Click to expand...

There is a myth that the 6-bath Kodak kits can't be split; it's just that - a myth. You can make up as much working solution as required for an individual batch. 2 rolls of 35mm in the Jobo requires about 250ml of chemistry, so I use the 5l kits but mix my working solution in 500ml or 1ltr batches (basically, I only mix up as much as I expect to use in a week, which is about the life of the working solution.)

Whichever kit you get - 3 or 6 bath - it's probably worth investing in a can of Protectan or some glass beads, so you can minimise oxidation of the remaining concentrates.

tim_walls said:

Re. the Kodak 5 litre kit


There is a myth that the 6-bath Kodak kits can't be split; it's just that - a myth. You can make up as much working solution as required for an individual batch.

Click to expand...

Agreed. I do this all of the time.

Jerry

Evgeny said:

Tim,
I read your article before I found this thread.

Click to expand...

Oh, that's nice to hear

3. I buy everything on-line from B&H. B&H cannot ship this Kodak 6-bath kit, it can only be bought in the store.

Click to expand...

Ahh, shame; I assume that means you must be in the US then? (Your profile doesn't say; there are no problems shipping the chemistry on this side of the pond.)

I think I will need to buy two addition bottles for the CPE-2 #4065 and may be something else for the 6-bath procedure, I don't know what exactly. If I buy individual bottles, what are their product codes? I want to implement a 6-bath procedure, but I'm a bit frustrated.

Click to expand...

It's helpful, but not essential, that all the bottles for the 6 main baths are Jobo bottles because they'll fit in the processor; by careful juggling between the bottles and the 4 graduates which come with the processor you don't necessarily need to though. By careful juggling I mean for example:

Keep first developer, reversal bath, colour developer, pre-bleach working solutions in sealed Jobo bottles and warm the entire bottle up in the processor.
Make sure you have 1 Jobo graduate free to allow you to measure each of the above as-required (washing the graduate thoroughly between each step.)
Keep bleach and fix in any old bottles, and decant them directly into two of your spare graduates - warm them in the graduates.
Stabiliser happens at room temperature, so use any old bottle.

That way you only need 4 'official' Jobo bottles, 3 Jobo graduates (one 'working' graduate for measuring your bottled solutions, and two for warming the bleach and fix,) and 3 generic bottles.

I've no idea if that's the recommended process, but it does work

Also, can you recommend the Lift for CPE-2 Plus Processor for ease of processing?

Click to expand...

I'm afraid I've never used it! I'm sure it's a great convenience, but by no means necessary, as long as you can be consistent in your timing of pouring the chemicals.

Evgeny said:

Expenses when I develop in that lab:
- driving to the lab and back is approx $15 and 2 hours, and another $15 and 2 hours a few days later when I take my film back. So the total cost is $30 and 4 hours.


Please advice.

Evgeny

Click to expand...

I know this wasn't your question, but have you considered using mailers?

I'm outside the USA.

Evgeny said:

Nick, suppose I can store exposed but not developed films in refrigirator, and then develop 6 rolls. Should I buy two tanks or reuse liquids in one tank (2 rolls + then 2 rolls + and then 2 rolls)?

Click to expand...

I don't think you need to go all the way to six. Just check the Jobo tank requirements. There is a point that the volume per roll drops off. I use the 2500 tanks for me and 120 3 rolls is the break point with colour.

If you aren't in the US you should see if you can find chemicals locally. Shipping this stuff is expensive.

Evgeny said:

I'm outside the USA.

Click to expand...

...in? I can give you a list of UK mail order companies who deliver E6 chemistry, for example. If we know where you are, someone might be able to help.

tim_walls said:

5. See my guide to DIY E6 for one method; this is how I did it before I got a Jobo.

Click to expand...

Tim, just a little note about your excellent page: E6 stabilizer is NECESSARY! It's not an extra like HCA for B&W film. Colour dyes in E6 and C41 films need the stabilizing solution to have an adequate lifespan. If you omit it, your risk seeing your films degrade in a matter of months.

mhv said:

Tim, just a little note about your excellent page: E6 stabilizer is NECESSARY! It's not an extra like HCA for B&W film. Colour dyes in E6 and C41 films need the stabilizing solution to have an adequate lifespan. If you omit it, your risk seeing your films degrade in a matter of months.

Click to expand...

You know, funnily enough, as I was re-reading that earlier today I thought "I really ought to edit that paragraph."

I was told - although have never seen myself - that some E6 chemistry kits come without a stabiliser. I've no idea if they try and roll the stabiliser into the BLIX or are just generally rubbish... Not having seen one without though, I'll probably change that, just as soon as I can remember what server it's hosted on and what the password is

tim_walls said:

You know, funnily enough, as I was re-reading that earlier today I thought "I really ought to edit that paragraph."

I was told - although have never seen myself - that some E6 chemistry kits come without a stabiliser. I've no idea if they try and roll the stabiliser into the BLIX or are just generally rubbish... Not having seen one without though, I'll probably change that, just as soon as I can remember what server it's hosted on and what the password is

Click to expand...

Hehe, good coincidence. Blix/stab: that might be the case with certain kits, I don't really know. I'm more of a do-what-Kodak says when it comes to colour anyway...

tim_walls said:

...in? I can give you a list of UK mail order companies who deliver E6 chemistry, for example. If we know where you are, someone might be able to help.

Click to expand...

Tim,
I'm in Israel, just edited my profile. I will ask in local labs for chemicals, I always bought other photographic stuff from B&H, they offer better price.

Evgeny,
I own a CPE2 and does, and has done E6 processing at home and at my camera club (using a specially made transfert line and Kodak chemistry) so take my comments accordingly.
At the pace you intend to go (30~50 films a year) it won't be economical to process your own slides. BUT processing your own slide will prove soon the only possibility you have (given what you said about labs closing) and will be rewarding because you will get very good and consistent results if you are careful.
You need either a big water bucket with a sort of fish tank heater (at about 50 W power, 2 or 3 pieces) and "normal" Jobo or Paterson tanks or a Jobo processor like the CPE2 starter kit (if still available) which will keep the chemistry at the correct temp and agitate in an automatic and consistent manner.
For the chemistry, go for the Kodak single use E6 chemistry kit which is exactly made for your kind of usage you plan and is the EXACT E6 process able to correctly process the top of the line Fuji or Kodak films.
For the measuring of the temperature look at the medical mercury thermometer which is a maximal thermometer (it keeps the top temperature reached even out of the bath), extremely cheap really accurate (it needs to be...) and calibrated at the 100 °F (38°C) temperature you plan to use !
Last but not least, have a look at the web site of Claudio Bonavolta which is processing his own slide for years : Dead Link Removed
I hope this helps !

Hi Evgeny, I use a Jobo DuoLab and the Tetenal 3 bath kits. As has been said I make up just the chemistry I need( I shoot 5x4 and can process as little as 6 sheets/1 reel) which is min of 270ml, its quite easy once you have sorted measuring grads etc, as an aside I use syringes, sans needles of course!

I have a 1500 tank and ext so I can do just 1 roll up to 3 of 35mm with them, 270ml again, which I use to use with my Horizon. I think 2-3 rolls is easily do-able one shot, the (self!) satisfaction of rolling your own is not to be ignored either.

I would have a longer drive than 2 hours each way without mine.

Gari

Maybe I'm missing something here, but if you are wanting straight E-6 development into mounted slides, why not try mailers? I've had excellent results with Fuji mailers (about $5/roll from B&H). Biggest problem is the 10-14 day delay in getting them back. Haven't used them in a while as I've shifted to digital for 35mm color, but guess they haven't changed much.

John

Garri, thanks for sharing your experience.
John, sending mailers from outside the USA is expensive and time consuming.

Georges,

thanks for the details!

I look at a Jobo CPE2 processor and even the optional lift to simplify the development process, but not the CPP, which is too much overpriced.

I still not decided if I should spend another $1K in addition to the volume of money I already invested in the film gear. On the other side, why not, if that's all I should pay and chemicals will be available for a couple of years. Digital life looks easer anyway

I would suggest that the CPE2 with lift will be perfect for your processing requirements. E6 has tight timing requirements for the first bath, with the lift you can time the bath to the second. Whatever timing method you use, you can be consistent to perfection.

Purchase a 1510 tank, it should come with a reel and centre core. (The centre core is what the reel slides onto)

Purchase a 1520 tank, it will come with either no reel or two reels, depending on the market it was originally available in. This tank should come with a duo centre core.

Purchase a 3 reel extension it should come with a 3 reel core.

Make any extra purchases of reels so that you end up with 4 reels. With this combination you are set up for developing 1 roll of 35mm on it's own, 2 rolls of 35mm or 2 rolls of 120, 4 rolls of 35mm or 4 rolls of 120 film, in the cheapest and most practical way possible.

Assuming rotary processing your chemical usage will be something like this.

1 x 35mm roll in the 1510 tank 140ml use 150ml.

2 x 35mm or 120 rolls in the 1520 tank, 240ml use 250ml.

4 x 35mm or 120 rolls in the combined 1510 and 3 reel extension, 470ml use 500ml.

You will have to have the rotary gear thing attached to the top of one of the tanks, leave the other tank top as it is so you can still to inversion developing by hand. This rotary gear is a separate item that you will need to purchase.

The E6 kit for the CPE2 is two extra bottles and another red bottle holder, which is designed to take 6 bottles instead of 4 bottles and 4 x 260ml graduates. Not an absolute requirement, but if you are doing bucket loads of E6, or it is all you develop, I would have it. (I in fact do have it)

If you purchase an older two speed CPE2, then do not process more than 4 rolls of film at a time. The motor and other stuff are a bit under powered, but really very adequate for normal amateur use. I have literally developed thousands of rolls and prints in mine.

A small bonus with the tanks I have mentioned above, is that you can combine the 1520 tank and 3 reel extender then process 8 x 10" prints as this combination is also the 8x10" print drum, they just use different stickers and include a cup into the lid instead of the funnel. (you will not need the cup)

The biggest print you can do in a CPE2 is 30x40cm (12x16"). This print drum comes in two pieces. The bottom piece is also called a print test drum, but it is also the smallest, 4x5" film processing drum. You will need a 2509 reel and possibly a film loader if you wish, then you're away doing 4x5" sheet film as well. Who knows what the future may hold for you.

The Jobo system is extremely versatile, perhaps the most versatile processing system the photographic industry has ever seen. The CPE2 is the smallest and weakest of the really versatile units, but it processes with a big punch.

Mick.

Mick, thanks for very detailed answer!

I think to develop 2 x 35mm because it requires same 125ml per roll as development of 4 x 35mm. I scan with a Nikon 5000 and then print in a lab.
So looks like I don't need the #1510 tank and 3 reel extension.

According to B&H the #1520 tank includes a #1501 reel.
According to jobousadarkroom.com the #4065 CPE-2 Plus includes a #3380 600ml Bottle Kit and #3318 260ml Graduate Kit, and Lift #4062 includes two rotary gears. I will check this with B&H in any case.

Here is my current shopping list

1. CPE-2 Plus Processor (MFR #40652 • B&H #JOCPE2PX)
2. Lift for CPE-2 (MFR #4062 • B&H #JOLCPE2P)
3. One Two-Reel Film Tank (MFR #1520 • B&H #JOT2R1500)
4. E-6 Three Bath Kit 5 Liters (MFR #T102034 • B&H #TEE63B5LK)
5. Cascade Film Washer (MFR #3350 • B&H #JOWF) ... do I need this???
6. Film Cassette Opener (MFR #204125 • B&H #KACO) ... do I need this???


Which Thermometer for slides to add to the list (from B&H inventory)?

What else to add to the list?

How do you dry the film after development?

How do you cut and store the film, especially unmounted slides?


Thanks!