TMY2 and Divided Developers

Matthew Gorringe · Jul 26, 2008

I've been using TMax TMY2-400 for a month or so now. I use it for night photography and am generally pleased with the results I'm getting in Xtol 1:1 for 12min at 20deg C, agitation 10 sec/min.

I would like to see if using a divided developer like D-23 will help me get a little better seperation in my highlights while still maintaining roughly the same overall contrast of the negative . I will also experiment with Xtol at 1:2 and reduced agitation to see if that gives me any compensating effect.

Is there anything about this film that makes it suitable/unsuitable for divided development?

Has anyone else tried divided development with it?

Am I barking up the wrong tree in trying to use a compensating developer to improve highlight seperation; will they generally just reduce the overall contrast of the neg?

Thanks very much,
Matt.

Tom Hoskinson · Jul 26, 2008

Matthew Gorringe said:
I've been using TMax TMY2-400 for a month or so now. I use it for night photography and am generally pleased with the results I'm getting in Xtol 1:1 for 12min at 20deg C, agitation 10 sec/min.

I would like to see if using a divided developer like D-23 will help me get a little better seperation in my highlights while still maintaining roughly the similar overall contrast of the negative . I will also experiment with Xtol at 1:2and reduced agitation to see if that gives me any compensating effect.

Is there anything about this film that makes it suitable/unsuitable for divided development?

Has anyone else tried divided development with it?

Am I barking up the wrong tree in trying to use a compensating developer to improve highlight seperation; will they generally just reduce the overall contrast of the neg?

Thanks very much,
Matt.

No Matt, I don't think you are barking up the wrong tree.
I use a compensating developer (Pyrocat) with TMY - it clamps the highlights and gives excellent highlight separation together with good contrast/microcontrast -but you still need to get your exposure right!.
BTW, I am a contact printer.

df cardwell · Jul 26, 2008

help me get a little better seperation in my highlights

Matthew,
Do you want to increase the contrast in the highlights, or reduce the contrast ?

Ian Grant · Jul 26, 2008

Sandy King has an excellent article in the July/August issue of View Camera on using Divided Developers.

You may also find that printing on a different paper makes a significant difference. Ilford Gallerie gives superb highlight sparation.

Ian

sanking · Jul 26, 2008

Ian,

Thanks for the nice comment and referece.

Matt, TMY-2 works nicely in a divided developer like D-23. One of the outstanding features of divided development is that with most films a very straight line curve is produced which spreads the compensation equally over the entire highlight range, unlike what you see with some compensating developers where there is severe compression in the highlights.

The pyro type developers that Tom mentioned also offer a very gentle type of compensation that tames the highlights, but the compensation is primarily produced with VC silver papers.

I should mention that my article in view camera is specifically directed to those who scan sheet film to print digitally. However, the concept is potentially useful to those who use 35mm and 120/220 film and expose in conditions where there is a lot of change of contrast on the same roll. Divided development was originally developed for this very purpose.

Sandy King

Ian Grant said:
Sandy King has an excellent article in the July/August issue of View Camera on using Divided Developers.

You may also find that printing on a different paper makes a significant difference. Ilford Gallerie gives superb highlight sparation.

Ian

Paul Verizzo · Jul 26, 2008

Tom Hoskinson;659398 BTW said:
Aren't those prints a bit hard to see at 1 x 1 1/2? Oh....... :rolleyes:

Paul Verizzo · Jul 26, 2008

Just got my 100' of TMY-2 yesterday

Matthew Gorringe said:
I've been using TMax TMY2-400 for a month or so now. I use it for night photography and am generally pleased with the results I'm getting in Xtol 1:1 for 12min at 20deg C, agitation 10 sec/min.

I would like to see if using a divided developer like D-23 will help me get a little better seperation in my highlights while still maintaining roughly the same overall contrast of the negative . I will also experiment with Xtol at 1:2 and reduced agitation to see if that gives me any compensating effect.

Is there anything about this film that makes it suitable/unsuitable for divided development?

Has anyone else tried divided development with it?

Am I barking up the wrong tree in trying to use a compensating developer to improve highlight seperation; will they generally just reduce the overall contrast of the neg?

Thanks very much,
Matt.

After running a test roll in D-76 1:1 I will be heading for the DD shelf for further experiments.

I'll let y'all know if anything develops. Er.....

Matthew Gorringe · Jul 26, 2008

df cardwell said:
help me get a little better seperation in my highlights

Matthew,
Do you want to increase the contrast in the highlights, or reduce the contrast ?

I'd like to get more contrast in the highlights while maintaining roughly the same contrast in the neg overall. I understand that I may find a change in film speed with a new developer and consequently would have to chnage my exposure to maintain the same overall contrast. I would also like to be able to spell "separation", did you have to quote me on that?

It sounds like it will be worth experimenting with D23 as a divided developer with this film; it will take me a few weeks to get started but I'll report back on what I find. Sandy, I'll be using this to print on silver is there anything different about processing for silver vs scanning?

All my film is 120 but I almost always use one roll to a subject, the divided development is targeted at maintaing as much detail in my highlights as possible in night landscapes where extreme brightness ranges are compounded by reciprocity failure.

Thanks for your help everyone,
Matt.

sanking · Jul 26, 2008

Matthew Gorringe said:
I
It sounds like it will be worth experimenting with D23 as a divided developer with this film; it will take me a few weeks to get started but I'll report back on what I find. Sandy, I'll be using this to print on silver is there anything different about processing for silver vs scanning?

Matt.

Not that much difference. For scanning we want a negative with a relatively low average gradient of about .45, one that would print on silver with a VC #3 filter or so. If you want a higher average gradient you can just bump the temperature up about five degrees and the emulsion can absorb more reducer, which will allow the negative to develop to a higher contrast

Sandy

Ian Grant · Jul 26, 2008

sanking said:
Not that much difference. For scanning we want a negative with a relatively low average gradient of about .45, one that would print on silver with a VC #3 filter or so. If you want a higher average gradient you can just bump the temperature up about five degrees and the emulsion can absorb more reducer, which will allow the negative to develop to a higher contrast

Sandy

I thought one of the advantages of Divided developers was they are semi-Panthermic so not temperature depenent within about a 6 degree C range.

Ian

df cardwell · Jul 26, 2008

At normal contrast, with XTOL, TMY has a straight line from .15 to 1.8 ~ 2.1 depend on your agitation and dilution.

Since it already is giving a linear resul (input = output), it seems impossible to increase the slope of the highlights without increasing the scale of the film. Using a two bath developer could give you a shoulder, which compresses the highlights, rather than separate them.

You may be able to reduce the exposure by a stop or two, and increase the development. This WILL induce a toe and a curve,
and while you will be compressing the shadows, you will increase the contrast of the highlights.

OR, you may use a developer like HC-110 to introduce a toe and raise the highlight portion of the curve. This too will raise the overall scale of the film.

The beauty of TMY for night photography is that it records such a long range of brightnesses in a useful way. A two bath, or water bath, for printing, makes easy work of seemingly unprintable negatives.

sanking · Jul 26, 2008

Ian,

That may be with some of them. However, my experience with the ones that I have tried is that the temperature of Solution A is very important in how much reducer the emulsion can absorb. The temperature of Solution B is probably much less critical, though I have not specifically tested this.

If you think about it you will see that the emulsion is gelatin and silver particles. The gelatin swells in water, and the warmer the water the more it can swell. The more it swells the more reducer it can absorb, and the more reducer it absorb the higher is the potential Dmax and average gradient of the negative.

Of course, this is one area where films are very different. Some films have very hard emulsions that swell much less than others at a given temperature. Compare for example a film like Acros to a film like Efke PL100.

Sandy King

Ian Grant said:
I thought one of the advantages of Divided developers was they are semi-Panthermic so not temperature depenent within about a 6 degree C range.

Ian

Ian Grant · Jul 26, 2008

Sandy

I suspect that the temperature has an effect on both parts of the process, and that the reason it's said to be sort of Panthermic is the compensating effects of the developer means that the negatives are easy to print regardless of the temperature.

Ian

Tom Hoskinson · Jul 26, 2008

Paul Verizzo said:
Aren't those prints a bit hard to see at 1 x 1 1/2? Oh....... :rolleyes:

Not too bad, Paul! My 73 year old eyes are still pretty good. And If I want a large contact print from a 35mm original, I make an enlarged negative.

A lot easier, of course, to simply contact print the 8x10 neg I made of the same scene
at the same time - or the 6x7, 6x9 or 6x12...

dancqu · Jul 26, 2008

Compensation

Matthew Gorringe said:
Am I barking up the wrong tree in trying to use a compensating
developer to improve highlight seperation; will they generally just
reduce the overall contrast of the neg? Thanks very much, Matt.

Compensation is a local reduction in what otherwise could
be overly dense areas of the negative. You've mentioned
single bath as well as two bath methods of attaining
compensation. In either case local depletion of the
developer and the local generation of reduction
byproducts are the operative factors.

It follows that the greater the depletion relative to the
less dense areas and the greater the retardent effect of
the byproducts, the greater the compensation. Dan

Matthew Gorringe · Jul 27, 2008

df cardwell said:
Since it already is giving a linear resul (input = output), it seems impossible to increase the slope of the highlights without increasing the scale of the film. Using a two bath developer could give you a shoulder, which compresses the highlights, rather than separate them.

Yes, this is what I was thinking about re barking up the wrong tree and what I think Dan was alluding to. Compensation in developing might also mean compression.

I wonder if I shouldn't try continuous/rotary agitation with Xtol 1:2. The constant supply of developer would encouage the curve to sweep upwards in the highlights. I have some leeway in printing to go much softer before even considering water baths so maybe this is one good possibility, I'll include it in my tests.

Thanks for your thoughts everyone.

df cardwell · Jul 27, 2008

Compensation in developing might also mean compression.

No, Compensation = Compressed Highlights !

To raise the highlights without raising the shadows, you have reduce the exposure. The combination of XTOL and TMY will raise the shadows VERY effectively. Rotary processing will tend to raise the highlights, but without reducing the exposure will not do what you need.

Attached are to sets of curves for Xtol + TMY from Kodak Germany. The exact times may no longer be exact, but the curve shapes will be VERY close.

dancqu · Jul 27, 2008

Matthew Gorringe said:
Yes, this is what I was thinking about re barking up the
wrong tree and what I think Dan was alluding to.
Compensation in developing might also mean
compression.

It does mean compression. And a good thing it does. Another
often used means of compression is under development; N-1,
N-2, etc. An alternative is the use of an appropriate filter at
the time of taking the photo. All in all staying away from
blown highlights.

The density range of film is Much greater than any paper's
ability to capture. If using a low contrast film on foggy
days, then expansion may be in order. Dan

Harry Lime · Jul 27, 2008

What speed are you rating TMY-2 at? 400? 800?

HL

Tom Hoskinson · Jul 27, 2008

Harry Lime said:
What speed are you rating TMY-2 at? 400? 800?

HL

I rate TMY-2 at 400 developed in Pyrocat

Harry Lime · Jul 28, 2008

Still waiting to get my hands on a roll of TMY-2 over here in merry old England....

I primarily use Barry Thornton's 2-bath or divided d76. Very curious to see how it looks in either.

TMY2 and Divided Developers

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