TMax 120 backing paper window numbering

Is anyone aware of some issue with TMax 400 that would cause the window numbering to be off by two exposures (on the front end, I believe). I bought a 5-roll box awhile back and didn't get the number of exposures I expected from an old 6x9 box camera, then had the some thing happen in a 6x6 box camera last weekend. I load the film, roll to the "1" mark using the back window, shoot 1 through 12, develop, and then get 10 exposures with the first aligning to the "3" number on the side of the film.

This are old cameras, so there's no point at which I align the black arrow to get started. It's not a film I use often so maybe there's something I just don't know. User error is definitely a possibility, but I can shoot three films the same way and it only happens with the TMax.

Thanks.

It may be that your box camera uses one of the (very old and rarely used) sets of numbers that Kodak removed from their backing papers a few years ago. They did that in order to reduce the ink involved, as one of the steps taken to deal with the upsurge of wrapper offset problems.
Some of the rows removed were subsequently re-instated, so your problem might be limited to film manufactured during a relatively short period of time.
Do you still have the backing paper?

What camera? How many frames are you expecting from a 6x9? Generally only 8 frames are exposed at that format.

You might find some clues in this thread:
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threa...per-not-aligning-with-red-window.140801/print

Note where, especially on the head of the film (frame 1) the difference between start point for 12 (6x6) and 10 (6x7) exposure vs 8 exposure (6x9) markings. Frame number on the film is practically meaningless.

Ironically, one of the sets of numbers that were deleted was the set of numbers that matched the red window in the camera that Kodak first manufactured to introduce the "modern" 120 format in its current form.
Even more ironically, that introduction was 120 years ago.

cdowell said:

This are old cameras, so there's no point at which I align the black arrow to get started.

Click to expand...

Having just explored this issue with an adaption of 120 film in a 122 film camera... the best thing you can do is to waste a roll of film and load the camera with the back off to see where the best start point is relative to the backing paper and actual film start point. Adjust your start point until it is an inch or so past the head of the film (tape).

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/1906-kodak-3a.184121/

But with a "red window" camera where numbers can be seen, the start point is irrelevant. All you need to know in that case is that the film is securely on the take-up spool when you close the back.

Thanks for all these replies. There's enough here for me to believe that at least I'm not crazy (about this issue, anyway). I think I'll just plan to use the TMax in a "real" camera that doesn't utilize a red window. Whatever the issue is, it doesn't seem to pop up if I stick to Rollei Infrared and Tri-X. Those films are probably better suited to the old-camera look anyway.

cdowell said:

I think I'll just plan to use the TMax in a "real" camera that doesn't utilize a red window.

Click to expand...

There are lots of red window cameras that will work well - probably almost all of them.

Your T-max may have fewer numbers side-to-side than the other rolls of film you are using. Your camera may have a red window that is in a slightly different place than normal. It's really not possible to diagnose the issue without seeing a picture of the camera back, and of the backing paper. If you save the backing paper from a roll of T-max and from some other film, you should be able to figure out where the frame numbers are, relative to the tape at the start of the film.

In your second example, a 6x6 camera should have a red window in the center. If your exposure came out aligned to the "3" number on the edge of the developed film ... is it possible your red window was aligned to the numbers for 6x9 at the edge?

The thread BrianShaw posted a link to, has a lot of pictures of backing paper for comparison.

reddesert said:

Your T-max may have fewer numbers side-to-side than the other rolls of film you are using. Your camera may have a red window that is in a slightly different place than normal. It's really not possible to diagnose the issue without seeing a picture of the camera back, and of the backing paper. If you save the backing paper from a roll of T-max and from some other film, you should be able to figure out where the frame numbers are, relative to the tape at the start of the film.

Click to expand...

I definitely haven't done a good job documenting the problem. I kind of run-and-gun with the box cameras and it took awhile for me the notice the pattern. Since I also have transferred the 120 to 620 spools, there was another variable to consider. But with three rolls of different kinds of film through the same Brownie camera on the same day, only the TMax yielded 10 exposures instead of 12. My Brownie is telling me something about these new-fangled films.