TMax 100 - blue solutions?

[runswithsizzers]

I recently processed a roll of Kodak TMax 100 in stock D-76. When I poured off the used solutions, I noticed several had a bluish tint. I am used to seeing some color when pouring off the pre-soak water, but I was still seeing blue, even in the hypo removal agent, which was unexpected, that late in the process,

As you can see, below, there was still some bluish-purple remaining on the edges of the negatives after processing. Would this be considered normal, or should I be troubleshooting my technique / chemistry?

 

[Photo Engineer]

Insufficient running water or time during washes.

PE

 

[runswithsizzers]

Insufficient running water or time during washes.

PE

Thanks!

Do I need to be concerned about long-term stability of this roll (now cut into strips)? That is, would you say further washing at this point is:
a. not really necessary, or
b. possibly useful, or
c. highly recommended

 

[Photo Engineer]

No problems. Just retained dyes.

PE

 

[runswithsizzers]

No problems. Just retained dyes.

PE

Thanks again! So nice to be able to consult with experts!

 

[Photo Engineer]

Thanks, but remember that these dyes indicate that a minor error in processing such as bad wash, acid or base wash, bad fix and etc. No problem overall, but to be pursued and fixed eventually by experience with your process.

PE

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Thanks, but remember that these dyes indicate that a minor error in processing such as bad wash, acid or base wash, bad fix and etc. No problem overall, but to be pursued and fixed eventually by experience with your process.

PE

Are there specific dyes in the edges for diagnosing issues in processing or are these dyes present throughout the emulsion and are the ones discussed ad nauseum on this forum and in a sticky by yourself? If they are evenly distributed I am curious why OP only has retention on the edge.

 

[runswithsizzers]

Thanks, but remember that these dyes indicate that a minor error in processing such as bad wash, acid or base wash, bad fix and etc. No problem overall, but to be pursued and fixed eventually by experience with your process.

PE

Which step would normally elminate the last of the dye?

I followed my normal procedure which is to adjust all solutions to 20*C, then:
- pre-rinse with water - 1 minute, constant agitation
- develop (stock D-76, 6:30; 30 sec initial agitation, then 3 inversions every 60 sec)
- stop rinse with water for 30 seconds, constant agitation
- fix with rapid fixer for 6 minutes, constant agitation
- running water rinse for at least 1 minute
- Kodak Hypo clearing agent, 2 minutes with agitation
- final rinse with running water, at least 5 minutes (tank emptied a couple of times)
- Photo Flo 30-60 sec
- quick rinse with DI water
- dry

The only thing different this time was I switched to Kodak HCA from another brand. Maybe I need a longer, stronger final rinse? Or should the dye already be gone by then?

I just found this in Processing KODAK PROFESSIONAL Black-and-White Films - April 2018 • ED-BWF
"With KODAK PROFESSIONAL T-MAX Films, fixer will be exhausted more rapidly than with other films. If negatives show a magenta (pink) stain after fixing, fixer may be near exhaustion, or fixing time is too short. If the stain is pronounced and irregular, refix the film in fresh fixer."
That particular fixer had only been used on 3 rolls of 35mm film (36 exposures) - this roll of TMax100 was the fourth roll. None of the previous 3 rolls were TMax. The fixer was rather old, mixed to working strength back in April, but it has been stored in full container. Kodak says stock or working rapid fixer shelf life is "indefinite" in full containers. Anyway, I won't be using that fixer again, though it should probably be OK.

 

[Vaughn]

Could contact between the emulsion and the reel cause insufficient local fixing/washing at point of contact?

 

[MattKing]

The fixer was rather old, mixed to working strength back in April, but it has been stored in full container. Kodak says stock or working rapid fixer shelf life is "indefinite" in full containers.

The reference to "Indefinite" keeping properties on the Kodak documentation is to unopened, full containers of the stock (from the manufacturer) concentrate, not to working strength fixer.

 

[koraks]

Could contact between the emulsion and the reel cause insufficient local fixing/washing at point of contact?

That's it. The dyes are normally evenly distributed, but where the film touches the reel, fluids don't get as much opportunity to interact with the emulsion, which results in (among others) reduced wash effectiveness. It depends a bit on the type of reels used, but this is a fairly common occurrence.

 

[mshchem]

That's it. The dyes are normally evenly distributed, but where the film touches the reel, fluids don't get as much opportunity to interact with the emulsion, which results in (among others) reduced wash effectiveness. It depends a bit on the type of reels used, but this is a fairly common occurrence.

+1 looks like reel contact.
I also use Kodak Hypo Clearing Agent, this seems to help, after using fresh rapid fixer. This helps to insure getting rid of the last bit of purple

 

[mshchem]

The reference to "Indefinite" keeping properties on the Kodak documentation is to unopened, full containers of the stock (from the manufacturer) concentrate, not to working strength fixer.

Yes, I don't store mixed fixer very long at all. I've seen the undiluted stock Fixer black and white and color, oxidize and ppt. out sulfur. T max films gobble up fixer.

 

[jimjm]

I agree with the theory that it could be film edges contacting the reel, and maybe a bit longer in the hypo-clear. Also, is your wash water colder at this time of year, or do you also adjust that to 20C?
Colder wash water will usually require longer wash times as well.

 

[takilmaboxer]

Plenty of vigorous agitation washing will help.

 

[runswithsizzers]

The reference to "Indefinite" keeping properties on the Kodak documentation is to unopened, full containers of the stock (from the manufacturer) concentrate, not to working strength fixer.

You are correct. Oddly, the Kodak publication I looked at yesterday said "Stock or Working Solutions in in Closed Containers (Full)" have indefinite keeping properties - but today, when I read that same document again, it now says "Stock or Concentrated Solutions..." I must learn to read, one day.

That same document <available here> shows a working solution of Kodak fixer in a "tank" is good for one month. I guess a tank is similar to my full sealed container, but to me a tank is something in use and not a storage container (?)

I have just been searching the Kodak Alaris website for product information documents specific to their fixers, but so far, no luck. I bought that particular fixer as concentrate from a bulk tank at the university art supply store, so I've never seen the packaging / documentation that came with it. I'm not for sure which of the three different Kodak fixers I have, but I believe the instructor said it was "Rapid Fixer." We were instructed to mix the fixer concentrate with water at 1 part fixer plus 3 parts water for fixing film, so, according to the same document quoted above, it is probably either Kodak Rapid Fixer or possibly, KODAFIX solution. I'd still like to read Kodak's product information sheets on those products if anyone knows where to find them.

In future, I will label my working solutions of fixer with a one-month expiration. I can't imagine me developing more than 4 rolls in a one-month period, so I don't think I have to worry about exhausting the fixer.

Thanks again for all the helpful answers.

 

[Wallendo]

My limited experience washing film in a daylight tank is that soaking the film a few minutes between water changes helps remove the dye. I use a modified version of Ilford's water saving technique, using 5 water changes and a long soak after agitation between water changes (the washing process usually takes about 20 minutes). For TMax and Fuji, I often have to add several additional 5 minute water soaks to clear the film. I generally do 5 minutes soaks until the effluent comes out clear.

 

[takilmaboxer]

I also do soaks, three between the fixer and the hypo clear. Works great!

 

[Vaughn]

Plenty of vigorous agitation washing will help.

This helps mostly with the first rinses to clear the fixer off the surfaces of the film. After that, washing consists of the fixer and other chemicals diffusing out of the emulsion into the water. Occasional moderate aggitaion bringing fresh water to the film surfaces should be enough. But you make a good point -- perhaps a little more vigor should be used to clear anywhere there may be reel-film contact.

OP: Could it be possible for the reel to have been slightly damp and the film emulsion actually stuck a little to the reel before the pre-rinse ? Normally not, as this makes loading the reel difficult. But it does seem that a combination of old fixer, washing efficiency, and film-reel contact is the culprit! Carry on!

 

[MattKing]

Working strength film fixer will usually last longer than a month.
The reference to "tanks" in that document is to dip and dunk tank lines or film hanger lines - a commercial lab's setup in most cases.
Kodak says a litre of working strength Kodak Rapid Fixer or Kodafix should fix 32 rolls of film.
If you want to maximize fixer capacity, use a stop bath instead of a water rinse. If you are only using it for a small number/couple of rolls at a time, the stop bath works fine one shot, at half strength.
I now mix up two quarts working strength fixer at a time, and track my usage on painter's tape on the bottle..
Clip tests are your friend - here is my approach: https://www.photrio.com/forum/resou...ixing-procedure-for-black-white-negatives.75/ (be sure to click on the "Overview" tab).
The edge discoloration is caused by contact between the reel and the film. You can probably eliminate it by pulling the reels out after the first 30 seconds of fixing and ratcheting them back and forth a couple of times to release the contact - the light wont hurt anything at that stage.

 

[Photo Engineer]

There are so many dyes in film it would be impossible to say "this is the one". All of the suggestions above are good.

After reviewing your posted image again though, it looks like the film is underfixed in those spots as well as having retained dye. This will not hurt as they are in non-image areas, but they will turn color over time.

PE

 

[Doremus Scudder]

Could contact between the emulsion and the reel cause insufficient local fixing/washing at point of contact?

+1

The problem seems to be that solutions are not reaching the film where it is in contact with the reel, resulting in retained dyes and underfixing. Re-fix and rewash your film without the reel or with a different reel that doesn't touch there.

If you loaded the reel when wet, the film may have just stuck to it in those spots and not had time to come loose during processing. If the problem persists, you may want to look at a different reel...

Doremus

 

[takilmaboxer]

I have always wondered how the rate of diffusion of the obvious purple dye (into the water) compares with the rate of diffusion of the fixers leftovers. If the color is gone, is the fixer gone too? My usual regime is three 5 minute soaks, 60 seconds in hypo clear, twenty minutes in the wash. I have 30 year old TM 100 that I processed this way and it's still perfect.
But regarding the vigorous agitation, yes, it's to keep the film from sticking to the reel.

 

[runswithsizzers]

[...]
OP: Could it be possible for the reel to have been slightly damp and the film emulsion actually stuck a little to the reel before the pre-rinse ? Normally not, as this makes loading the reel difficult. But it does seem that a combination of old fixer, washing efficiency, and film-reel contact is the culprit! Carry on!

Interesting point. I had previously used that reel earlier in the day. It took me a while to set up for the second roll, and I even put the empty reel in my <home-made film dryer> for a little while before loading it for the second run. But my home made dryer is rather tame, so yes, it is quite possible that reel was slightly damp when I loaded the TMax 100.

 

[runswithsizzers]

Working strength film fixer will usually last longer than a month.
The reference to "tanks" in that document is to dip and dunk tank lines or film hanger lines - a commercial lab's setup in most cases.
Kodak says a litre of working strength Kodak Rapid Fixer or Kodafix should fix 32 rolls of film.
If you want to maximize fixer capacity, use a stop bath instead of a water rinse. If you are only using it for a small number/couple of rolls at a time, the stop bath works fine one shot, at half strength.
[...]

I understand about the tanks. But Kodak is usually pretty good about supplying instructions for both commercial labs and hobbyists using small tanks. So it's frustrating that I can't find Kodak's recommended shelf life for working strength fixer in full, sealed containers.

I am not really concerned with fixer capacity. If I were to shoot 4 rolls of B&W 35mm film in a month, that would be extraordinary for me. I do mark each roll on the jug of the working fixer as I reuse it, but time is going catch me long before I exhaust the capacity.
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Thanks again to all the forum members for sharing your wisdom.