Tmax 100 4x5, presoak or straight into developer?

[harlequin]

Hello Team,

Is is wise to have water bath pre soak, I heard it can remove the pink cast with Tmax.

Or is this an unnecessary exercise, and just have film go directly into developer, what say you...


Thanks for your feedback on this.

Harlequin

 

[Tom Kershaw]

Or is this an unnecessary exercise, and just have film go directly into developer, what say you...

I process sheet film in Jobo Expert drums and don't pre-soak.

 

[Vaughn]

Personal choice -- my opinion based on reading pages and pages on this topic here on this forum. For a complete night's reading, if not more, check out the few long threads here on the subject!

 

[pentaxuser]

Personal choice -- my opinion based on reading pages and pages on this topic here on this forum. For a complete night's reading, if not more, check out the few long threads here on the subject!

The lights dim except for a spotlight on a guy standing on a canvas square of about 20 ft square. He is holding a mic whose lead appears to disappear into the darkness above. He says:

"Ladies and gentlemen, the main event of the evening here at Madison Square Garden, New York. 15 rounds of boxing for the middleweight championship of Photrio between, in the red corner the champion Pre-soak and the leading contender No pre-soak

Your referee for the contest is Matt King"

Matt gives both contestants their instructions and adds, as a educated Canadian: "May the better man win"

NB In a contest of two it is always the better man and not the best man.

pentaxuser

 

[removedacct1]

It doesn't matter; choose either. TMX is indestructible.

 

[MattKing]

Matt gives both contestants their instructions and adds, as a educated Canadian: "May the better man win"

Person, not man

 

[grat]

Person, not man

Great-- not only are we now anthropomorphizing the concept of soaking vs. not soaking, now we're sexualizing it.

Personal opinion: pre-soaking reduces the anti-halation layer's effects on the developer/stop/fixer, and it helps to establish a preliminary temperature for the developing tank to minimize temperature swings.

Second opinion: I'm a novice. Take my advice at your own risk.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

I don't pre-soak any of the Ilford's films that I use. I pre-soak TMY, TMX, Rollie IR, to rid film of all those dyes that make my Xtol-R look nasty

 

[pentaxuser]

Person, not man

True, Matt but in practical terms there were no female boxers at Madison Square Garden in those famous days

pentaxuser

 

[MattKing]

Great-- not only are we now anthropomorphizing the concept of soaking vs. not soaking, now we're sexualizing it.

I prefer thinking it as removing any particular gender association from it - the better person, that is.
And after all, if pentaxuser is going to have me say it, at least I should have some say in the matter!

 

[JensH]

Hi,

well, with TMX it doesn't seem to matter. I once didn't, now I do.
Anyway, I soak all films for 5 minutes in deionised water as recommended by Jobo.
I'm using a Jobo 3010 (up to ten sheets 4x5") with Kodak D76.

The only film that had to be pre soaked was Kodak HSIR... ugly streaks if not doing so.

Best
Jens

 

[removedacct1]

Harlequin, as Jens has pointed out, if you are using a Jobo (or some roller drum type device) for developing your film, you would likely be wise to presoak your film. If, however, you are using simple trays or tanks, it is not likely necessary.
Few manufacturers recommend presoaking their films before adding the developer. Rollei is one exception: the IR 400 film must be presoaked for 3-5 minutes before the developer, or you will get loads of tiny pinholes in the images. The original Acros had to be presoaked also, to prevent air bells. Few other films require it, and the benefits of doing a presoak are unclear and/or dubious.

 

[mshchem]

What happens to the dye in a commercial processing operation?? Minilabs that process color films don't need to worry about the dye. I've found that processing Tmax films the secret to the un-purple is thorough fixing followed by good old Kodak Hypo Clearing Agent for at least 2 minutes, wash well.

I have always processed color films with a pre wash, mainly to insure consistent temperature.

What happens to the dye? Is it neutralized? Converted? Washed away??

Inquiring Minds need to know.
Mike

 

[Tom Kershaw]

I've found that processing Tmax films the secret to the un-purple is thorough fixing followed by good old Kodak Hypo Clearing Agent for at least 2 minutes, wash well.

I don't use a HCA step but do use 2-bath fixing that works well. 4 minutes in each bath in the Jobo.

 

[KenS]

Hello Team,

Is is wise to have water bath pre soak, I heard it can remove the pink cast with Tmax.

Or is this an unnecessary exercise, and just have film go directly into developer, what say you...


Thanks for your feedback on this.

Harlequin

In some 60-odd years have never 'pre-soaked' any film of any size. By so doing you are morely likely to be under developing your film. If and when you use the recommended development 'time'. The pink cast will be removed by the developer.. it IS afterall, a water based 'solution.

Ken

 

[grat]

Few manufacturers recommend presoaking their films before adding the developer. Rollei is one exception: the IR 400 film must be presoaked for 3-5 minutes before the developer, or you will get loads of tiny pinholes in the images.

That's not in the current datasheet, and wasn't my experience with a recent stack of 4x5 Rollei IR 400-- According to my notes, I pre-soaked for 30 seconds with constant "swizzle" agitation, and had no pinholes. Current data sheet says "If necessary, pre-soak approximately one minute", but doesn't say when it might be necessary.

 

[Doremus Scudder]

If you tray develop sheet film in batches, you need to pre-soak to keep the film from sticking together in the developer. If you use a tank or develop single sheets, there's no real need. If you want to get rid of the anti-halation dyes before developing you need to pre-soak, but that's more of a personal aesthetic than a necessity.

With rotary processing, it is often a good idea to pre-soak to get the temperature stabilized and to help with evenness of development (the danger being streaking from the film not being completely covered fast enough by the developer when pouring it in.

I tray develop in batches and pre-soak all my film (TMX, TMY, 320Tri-X, Bergger, etc.). There's no real downside to pre-soaking as long as the pre-soak is long enough to completely saturate the emulsion. Care needs to be taken to soak films with surfactant incorporated in the emulsion. I'm not sure if Ilford films still have (or ever did have) that, but Kodak films don't. Three minutes with agitation is long enough.

Be sure to introduce the sheets into the water bath one-at-a-time and leave 10-15 seconds between sheets so they don't stick together. If they do stick, simply extend the soak and gently work them apart. No damage is done if this happens in the water bath (as opposed to the developer!).

Best,

Doremus

 

[mshchem]

I don't use a HCA step but do use 2-bath fixing that works well. 4 minutes in each bath in the Jobo.

The Jobos are SO GREAT for fixing the modern Tmax,Delta films.

 

[Bill Burk]

As Doremus Scudder mentioned and I agree, presoak in trays will reduce the tendency of sheets to stick together, you sort of get them ready for an even introduction to the developer.

I don’t do it but I am quick to go through the first cycles of interleaving. Heaven forbid-don’t do any pairs emulsion to emulsion because you will introduce faeries and ufo’s.

But the pink washes out in the first few changes of wash water at the end either way.

 

[osella]

What happens to the dye in a commercial processing operation?? Minilabs that process color films don't need to worry about the dye. I've found that processing Tmax films the secret to the un-purple is thorough fixing followed by good old Kodak Hypo Clearing Agent for at least 2 minutes, wash well.

I have always processed color films with a pre wash, mainly to insure consistent temperature.

What happens to the dye? Is it neutralized? Converted? Washed away??

Inquiring Minds need to know.
Mike

I’m not sure of the exact chemistry behind it but the sulfite in the developer will bleach the anti-halation dyes.

That isn’t the same as the Tmax pink though and a good wash will take care of it, though it may take a long time without hypo clear of some kind. When I was replenishing Xtol it was slightly pink when added back to the working volume, after a day or two the pink was gone. I can only assume the pink dye is broken down by light over time.

 

[Nicholas Lindan]

If you put paper under your grain magnifier then you should presoak. Conversely, if you don't then you shouldn't.

I find the pink comes out with the hypo clearing agent - which is made from copious amounts of sodium sulfite and a small amount of pH buffer. A bit more comes out with the photoflo and by then the film has lost its tint.

 

[MattKing]

If you put paper under your grain magnifier then you should presoak. Conversely, if you don't then you shouldn't.

And if you use stop bath with film, all bets are off!

 

[Tom Kershaw]

The Jobos are SO GREAT for fixing the modern Tmax,Delta films.

I do find the Jobo does a good job as you say. I'm reminded of the efficiency when I occasionally process film by hand.

 

[Bikerider]

It is a while since I used T Max but never ever have I pre-soaked that or any other film for any reason. My last T Max is as clear or clearer than any of my other mono films and this I attribute to good and thorough washing after the developing/fixing stages. Yes there is a dye that come out usually with the end of the developing stage but that is what is supposed to happen and what is left comes out in the remaining steps.
When you think about it, there is a dilution of the developer before filling the tank, introducing additional water into the tank and then pouring it out again will leave plain water on the film which has to mix with the developer and could result in uneven developing. Water soaked into the emulsion will not easily mix with the developer.

Does Kodak suggest pre wash? If not why do it? they will have spent considerable time/money of getting the best out of their product so why go against their recommendations?

Of all the mono film types and makes (and there have been a lot in the past 50 years) I have used only two (not including film like Ilford XP1) have shown a noticeable tint in the base and they were Ilford which has a very pale grey shade and Kentmere which is a deeper grey/blue but not so much that it affects the final result.

 

[removed account4]

Harlequin if you are using a jOBO

Anyway, I soak all films for 5 minutes in deionised water as recommended by Jobo.

its best to follow the instructions of the machine
if you are doing it by hand then it it has been concluded by
the endless threads of previous discussion it probably doesn't matter
some developers ( like Xtol ) recommend no pre-wet, others don't seem to recommend anything..
I mainly do it because after I processed everything and I am cleaning up
I pour the AH layer into the developer and it vanishes ! its a parlor trick I never get tired of