TM100 Anti-halation layer just won't go away.

pbromaghin · Mar 4, 2021

HELP!

Processing TX100. Everything went normally - Drum on a Uni-roller with constant agitation, developed in D76, stop, fix for 10 minutes, HCA and more-than-Ilford-method rinse (3 min, 3 min, 5min, 10 min). But purple kept coming with every rinse dump, and when I opened up the first reel to put the film into distilled water with PhotoFlo, the whole film was still very purple.

What now? More rinse? Could fixer be exhausted? This gallon has done 45 rolls.

Lachlan Young · Mar 4, 2021

Are you using rapid fix?

MattKing · Mar 4, 2021

PE, from more than 10 years ago: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/pink-magenta-stain-not-blue-which-is-a-different-issue.69462/
EDIT: as you will see in that thread, it isn't anti-halation.

urnem57 · Mar 4, 2021

Using fresh (ish) fixer and Heico Perma wash solved that problem for me. I tried all kinds of things.

pbromaghin · Mar 4, 2021

Beret what it looks like.

Lachlan Young · Mar 4, 2021

Yeah, that looks underfixed I think. Working strength rapid fixes have about a 1 month lifespan in a partly full bottle, about a week in a tray.

Bill Burk · Mar 5, 2021

I wash my 4x5 Kodak TMAX films in changes of tray water. It starts out pink and the pink fades with each tray exchange for about the first 10 minutes of washing.

Interesting that it is a 2 electron sensitization dye, not antihalation. Nice.

AgX · Mar 5, 2021

You Americans are obsessed with dye rinse-out.

foc · Mar 5, 2021

AgX said:
You Americans are obsessed with dye rinse-out.

Lachlan Young · Mar 5, 2021

Bill Burk said:
I wash my 4x5 Kodak TMAX films in changes of tray water. It starts out pink and the pink fades with each tray exchange for about the first 10 minutes of washing.

Interesting that it is a 2 electron sensitization dye, not antihalation. Nice.

I've noticed the effects of pH that Ron mentioned - C-41 fix takes most of the dye with it (makes for spectacularly pink or purple fixer) while the more acid rapid fixes don't. For whatever reason, I've found Tri-X to fix much better/ faster in C-41 fix than more acid fixes.

pentaxuser · Mar 5, 2021

Peter, it can be disconcerting. I have only ever used TMax 400 and as an experiment I tried to use a pre-wash to completely rid the water of any blue colour. I just about but not quite managed it after about 6 rinses with a lot of agitation and letting each fresh "fill" sit for about 5 mins for diffusion purposes

OK the fix and final post fix washes then did rid the film of any blueness but after being used to the likes of HP5+ it was a shock

Kodak has now solved the problem for me by making TMax just too expensive in the U.K.

pentaxuser

Neal · Mar 5, 2021

+1 for old fixer. I always use the cutoff end of a roll to test fixer before I start.

Good luck,

NealWydra

Andrew O'Neill · Mar 5, 2021

45 rolls? I'd say your fix is pretty near done.

Nicholas Lindan · Mar 5, 2021

My experience has been that most of the dye comes out in fresh HCA. Another factor is the temperature of the processing chemicals and especially the wash water. I try to keep the wash water at 70-75F. It may be that purple stain problems are more common in the winter when the water is colder (and in Cleveland that can be bloody cold).

pbromaghin · Mar 5, 2021

Ok, crisis averted, thanks to you all.

First, a correction to the OP - it was a purplish deep blue, not a real purple. All chemicals and rinse/mix water that I use are put together at least 24 hours before and so are all the same temperature. The fixer was regular Kodak Professional Fixer, not rapid. The data sheet says it should be good for 100 rolls when stored in a closed full bottle, which this was, but it looks like it went beyond the 2 month storage time. Luckily, I had a quart of Ilford Rapid Fixer working solution that had been used on a few 4x5 sheets of HDPP. It was only a quart and the film was in a 2-liter tank, so I diluted it 1:1 to cover the film. Because of the questionable strength I let it run on the roller for 30 minutes.

Pouring it out, there was a lot of blue.

This was followed with 4 rounds of rinse in 70 degree water at 5min, 10min, 15 min, and 30min. The water dumped out pinkish blue, pink, less pink, and finally clear. This morning, now dried down, the films are still a bit blue, so I re-spooled and will run them back through a fix and rinse as soon as I mix up a new batch.

The first New Year's resolution I have made in 25 years was to put an end to my Vivian Maier-like backlog of undeveloped film. That's when this fixer was mixed and it got me about halfway there.

MattKing · Mar 5, 2021

pbromaghin said:
The fixer was regular Kodak Professional Fixer, not rapid.

Was it the fixer mixed from powder, or the liquid fixer that comes in a single one quart or one litre bottle?
The latter is actually a rapid fixer.
Both are hardening fixers, which might also have an effect.
I use the Kodak Rapid Fixer and don't add the little bottle of hardener.

Doremus Scudder · Mar 5, 2021

I had a similar, perhaps the very same, problem with TMY in 4x5 a while back. I had three or four 50-sheet boxes that came out blue no matter how long I fixed, HCA'd, etc.

If you have the same issue, it's not your fixer and it's not your HCA or lack thereof. It's a problem with the dyes in the film (sensitizing dyes I would think, not the anti-halation layer).

The remedy was to soak the film in a mild alkaline solution after fixing. I used both sodium carbonate and bicarbonate (baking soda) as well as some others. All of them worked, but I ended up using the carbonate most of the time since I have it on hand. It was something like 1/4 tsp in 500ml of water.

The blue tint rapidly turned to brilliant magenta and infused into the solution. When the film base was clear, I washed as usual. This became part of my "normal" TMY processing for 200 sheets or so. After that, the next batches didn't need the extra carbonate bath.

I have no idea what caused this; neither did anyone else here. I posted about it along with photos and got zero responses... It appears to be fleeting.

At any rate, the alkaline bath worked fine and the negatives turned out very clear and clean.

Best,

Doremus

pbromaghin · Mar 5, 2021

MattKing said:
Was it the fixer mixed from powder, or the liquid fixer that comes in a single one quart or one litre bottle?

The powder that makes 1 gallon. Yes, with hardener.

MattKing · Mar 5, 2021

pbromaghin said:
The powder that makes 1 gallon. Yes, with hardener.

That is not a Rapid Fixer.

john_s · Mar 5, 2021

pbromaghin said:
.......The first New Year's resolution I have made in 25 years was to put an end to my Vivian Maier-like backlog of undeveloped film.....

Hmmmm.... that reminds me.....

pbromaghin · Mar 5, 2021

Doremus Scudder said:
I had a similar, perhaps the very same, problem with TMY in 4x5 a while back. I had three or four 50-sheet boxes that came out blue no matter how long I fixed, HCA'd, etc.

If you have the same issue, it's not your fixer and it's not your HCA or lack thereof. It's a problem with the dyes in the film (sensitizing dyes I would think, not the anti-halation layer).

The remedy was to soak the film in a mild alkaline solution after fixing. I used both sodium carbonate and bicarbonate (baking soda) as well as some others. All of them worked, but I ended up using the carbonate most of the time since I have it on hand. It was something like 1/4 tsp in 500ml of water.

The blue tint rapidly turned to brilliant magenta and infused into the solution. When the film base was clear, I washed as usual. This became part of my "normal" TMY processing for 200 sheets or so. After that, the next batches didn't need the extra carbonate bath.

I have no idea what caused this; neither did anyone else here. I posted about it along with photos and got zero responses... It appears to be fleeting.

At any rate, the alkaline bath worked fine and the negatives turned out very clear and clean.

Best,

Doremus

Did it fizz up at all? If not it should be easy enough to try this in the tank where the film is all ready to go.

pbromaghin · Mar 5, 2021

MattKing said:
That is not a Rapid Fixer.

Ummmm.... When did I say it was?

Lachlan Young · Mar 5, 2021

pbromaghin said:
The powder that makes 1 gallon. Yes, with hardener.

Not really a good choice with modern high iodide emulsions with the electron sensitisation dyes - a near neutral pH ammonium thiosulfate fix is what's really needed, not a fairly acid sodium thiosulfate one.

MattKing · Mar 5, 2021

MattKing said:
That is not a Rapid Fixer.

pbromaghin said:
Ummmm.... When did I say it was?

You didn't, but others reading the thread may not be aware of the fact that it is not Rapid Fixer - I should have clarified the reason I posted.

DREW WILEY · Mar 5, 2021

I happen to use TF4 archival fixer, which is alkaline, and never re-use any of my chemistry. Never. Just enough fixer is mixed fresh each session, and discarded afterwards. TMax films, regardless of type, sheet or roll, come out of the fixer barely pink, and then are completely clear after just a few minutes of water rinse. No HCA needed. TF4 isn't nearly as cheap per volume as ordinary fixer, but what is your time worth? I'd either have cobwebs on me or outright die of old age if I took as much time to fix and wash film as some of you do.

TM100 Anti-halation layer just won't go away.

pbromaghin

Lachlan Young

MattKing

Moderator

urnem57

pbromaghin

Lachlan Young

Bill Burk

AgX

foc

Lachlan Young

pentaxuser

Neal

Andrew O'Neill

Moderator

Nicholas Lindan

Advertiser

pbromaghin

MattKing

Moderator

Doremus Scudder

pbromaghin

MattKing

Moderator

john_s

pbromaghin

pbromaghin

Lachlan Young

MattKing

Moderator

DREW WILEY

TM100 Anti-halation layer just won't go away.

Moderator

Moderator

Advertiser

Moderator

Moderator

Moderator

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency