TLR's serious or nostalgic?

I had a Lubitel for a while, long enough to learn that I liked the larger negatives. Then I sold it to a friend for two beers in a bar - a fair exhange

Ole said:

I had a Lubitel for a while, long enough to learn that I liked the larger negatives. Then I sold it to a friend for two beers in a bar - a fair exhange

Click to expand...

You got the better end of the deal!

Hey David,

I like the academic, historical commentary, I know where to come when I need to find out something useful??? I always say that if someone dissagrees with you on anything, you know you're on to a winner, or at least you're doing something right. On saying that however I must agree, the Lubitel is the cheapest hunk of plastic ever put together, no problems with that comment, neither can I dissagree with the comments about its problems. I do know one thing though, I'd rather spend the £15-20 or so on one of these to try out the medium & the peculiarities than spend £100's just to find out I didn't fancy the idea after all. Unless of course you've got plenty spare cash in the basement which you want to blow on an experiment....if so I'll gladly take some off your hands in the name of science!!

Oh...and I agree with Bob, Ole did get the better end of the deal but he did get an experimant out of it as well which must be better than just the two beers? Which bar was that then??

Paul Berry

I've been using TLR's on and off, for years. My first was a MAT124G, brand new back in the 1970's. In a moment of temporary insanity, I sold it off. Years later, I got the itch again, and bought a 12 (virtually the same but less "fancy"). It's my main 120 camera. It's light, quiet, easy to use. My neighbor had a Lubitel which broke a month after she bought it, so she got a YashicaMat and it still works perfectly, just like mine.

PB001 said:

Hey David,

I like the academic, historical commentary ...

Click to expand...

Paul (I assume you mean me), I agree totally that it's good to experiment with low-cost equipment, it's just that I think the Lubitel has potential for major confusion with less experienced photographers. It is not only very tough to focus, it has no shutter speeds slower than 1/15, so beginners cannot practice shooting off a tripod at f16, which is where the triplet lens would give best definition, and also the shutter speeds (at least on mine) are dubious, which would confuse someone trying to expose their film accurately. As others have remarked, if you want medium-format quality at rock-bottom prices, the best way to go can be with a folding camera (Agfa Isolette, Zeiss Nettar, etc.). I have a Kodak 66 Mark III folder which cost £25 in mint condition and which I would prefer to a Lubitel every time.

Regards,

David

Originally Posted by Nicole Boenig-McGrade
"I want one!!!!! "

Hey, Nicole, why don't you sell this D70 you got from the shop with the sympathetic clerk and buy a Rolleiflex with the money ? I'm not sure if you'll get half of the $$$ you paid for the DigiCam back, since it must be now at least a few weeks old (so, almost obsolete), but the 50 year old Rolleiflex will be worth the money you'll give for it and it will actually get more and more precious as time passes. I got mine for 600 euros and now the are sold for twice this price (the 2,8 F of course).

A Yashica is much cheaper, and will remain like that, too. A Rolleiflex TLR is an investment.

Nicole, I want a Hassey...

But, I do have a Mamiya C330. I actually love it, and enjoy using it handheld, due to all the reasons said here.

I tried a kowa Super66. I don't know if it operates like a Hassey but it scared me to death the first time I snapped the shutter. I had never seen the curtain before!!!

Still, I think that a TLR is a great way to go for anyone wanting medium format. I use mine for stills, landscapes and photographing my kids.

Nice one!

Paul (I assume you mean me), I agree totally that it's....

Hi Dave,

Touche [is that how you spell it...I've never been too good a French] I guess we could go round in circles debating this point, talking about the pros & cons of the humble plastic artifact. This may use up valuable typing space, but that's probably about all? Interesting though?

Hey Nicole,

If you finally manges to get one from somewhere, I look forward to hearing all about it!!

Paul Berry

Click to expand...

A while back I placed an article on the Mamiya TLR lens systems on Bob Monagham's MF site at

Dead Link Removed

I wanted to place it here but as it contains a number of figures, I couldn't get it to "fit".

David A. Goldfarb said:

I'd also recommend staying away from the Lubitel and it's Chinese comrade, the Seagull. If you're looking for a decent TLR that's not too expensive, try a Minolta Autocord or Yashicamat.

Click to expand...

Well, I have to disagree, a little. I've owned and used a Seagull (an older model, a 4B-1 with triplet lens, knob advance and red window framing, including capability for 6x4.5, though mine didn't include the mask), and it wasn't bad at all. The shutters in Seagulls are notoriously fragile, and the ironclad rule is *do not* change the shutter speed after cocking the shutter, but with no double exposure interlock on the older models, it's no big deal to cap the lens, release, change speed, and recock. I'm not certain this is an option with the newer crank-wound models (4A-105, -107, and -109), but these newer ones do incorporate a Tessar-type 4-element coated lens, accessory shoe, and I think self-cock on film advance (as well as not requiring the red window except for starting the counter). Bottom line is, for what they cost (about the same, brand new, as a 30-40 year old Yashica 124 or 124-G), they're not a bad camera -- nothing in common with Lubitel beyond twin lens and using 120 film -- but you can't count on how long they'll last.

My first serious camera was a Rolleiflex E2 with an f/3.5 Schneider Xenotar. That was in about 1958. I still use it occasionally and with an occasional CLA it still works fine (although I've lately been seduced by a used Hasselblad C/M and a couple of lenses). The big square negative means you can crop and not loose much quality, which means you can get away without a tele lens. The 80mm feels wide in the first place and you can back up if you want wider. Rolleis are very quiet and used at waist level, perhaps even turned sideways so that you aren't obviously shooting straight ahead of you, are great for street photography. They are good portrait machines (if you crop and you remember not to shoot your subjects below eye level because of the waist level finder). They are good landscape cameras and they are even pretty good for sports and action if you use the open frame sportsfinder built into their hoods (I did some of that for my highschool newspaper). I agree with the fellow above who suggested that buying a brand new one (which almost seem to be more like commemorative models) doesn't make sense unless you have money to burn. Find a gently used one if you can. You might even fool around with a lesser model to try out the camera type--a Rolleicord (saw one at a camera show last weekend for $75), a Yashicamat or a Minoltacord. The Rolleiflex T was slightly cheaper model that lacked a couple of nice features on the full blown Rollei, but was very capable. And then, as someone else mentioned, there was the Baby Rollei which used 127 film which is, unfortunately, difficult to obtain nowadays. I can remember lusting after one of those so that I could show superslides, 4x4 transparencies that would fit readily into a 35mm projector.

You won't be sorry.

Nicole Boenig-McGrade said:

I want one!!!!!

Click to expand...

Nicole, a Yashicamat LM was my entry to MF a couple of years back. Cost $180 oz dollars.

I see TLR's fairly frequently at markets here in Sydney, so I doubt you'll have trouble picking one up for a good price.

You will likely LOVE shooting your kid pics with it. I have two boys under 5 and they move like the wind, but it's real easy with the TLR as other posters have mentioned..

Go for it ! ! !

Glenn

TLRs can be serious and nostalgic.

I use my two 124's a good deal, more this year than in many past. I bought one years ago, the second one just this year for $80. The shutters don't match but the lenses match well.

Avedon was still using a TLR at least as late as his last master-class sessions. Most of the famous 1950's work of Avedon, Penn, and many other magazine shooters was done using TLRs.

This past weekend, I was at a venue that prohibited "professional" cameras like AE-1's etc. I waltzed through the door with my TLR and two pro-packs of TXP...

Yes TLR`s in 120 roll film have their place... BUT remember that you will only have a 75 mm or 80mm lens as they are not interchangeable,(except Mamiya C series? ) and they are lighter and quieter than H,Blads Rollies. In my opinion a Hasselblad 500cm with 50mm, 80mm and 150mm makes avery great outfit, yes heavy but quality Zeiss lenses are well worth it.......... Cheers BarrieB. .

I didn't bother to read all these pages, but half my work was done with a Rollei 2.8 TLR, much of it handheld. Faster film and monopods are helpful. See some of my work at http://www.frankpetronio.com

Last year I stopped shooting 6x6 because I was getting stagnant - composition is almost too easy with a square, and I was tending to do too many centered and symetrical images. Also, I began to feel that I was compromising with medioum format, and that for times I wanted to capture information and detail, I should be using 4x5. For interiors and fast shooting, I use a 35mm or digital SLR. They seem better suited to those tasks - the Rollei was always inbetween.

But I will probably come back again. I just have to switch gear occassionally.

David H. Bebbington said:

Must disagree here - the Lubitel was part of a KGB plot to drive imperialist warmongers and running dogs of capitalism crazy. It has a peculiar viewfinder copied from an old Voigtländer camera called a Brilliant which was a non-focusing viewfinder. The Lubitel viewfinder has had a very small and dim center spot added, which is the only part you can use for focusing, and is excruciatingly difficult to use. Buy a Lubitel and I guarantee you will throw it away in disgust and be put off TLRs for life.

Click to expand...

Well, well, well...

Lubitel in literal translation means "lover"... (although, as it was astutely pointed out, in this context it translates more accurately into "amateur", or perhaps better "afficionado") It is an Anglocised version of a word that is really pronounced more like Liu-beetz-yell.

A little trivia there - sorry if off topic.

They are cheap. They are built like most russian things - crudely, with large tolerances and random QA/QC... but also near un-killable (what's there to break?)
They are plasticy and all that, with a dim view finder that is REALLY hard to focus (yes, the only matted spot is smaller than a dime and quite dim, the supplied magnifier is... well...here: hyperfocal method!)

BUT

Like with most Russian optics, I found that you have to spend a lot more to rival the qualityof the glass (at least in the two I have had, one that I still do).
Its simple to use and impossible to break unless you drop it on concrete amd/or kick it with a steel-toe boot.

While I knew that my TLR experience, consisting solely of a Lubitel at this point, would not meet the rarified standards of the people who sneer at things that don't say Haselblad, Leica or Rollei on them - I think the little camera deserves better than it gets (and yes, I may have sentiment on my side - I got my first one when I was 10!).

Then again, I don't throw things away when they challange me. The Lubitel is hard to focus, and only has one lens and that's it...but I have taken some amazing shots with it, from landscapes to available light street type stuff. I have held it sideways, up side down, any way you please - I have swung it by the strap with the timer on. I have left it on coffee shop tables, where it attracted gawkers with its weird, old fashioned looks and photogrphed them from where it sat without them knowing it! Its been hend held (ok, gut braced, really...) at ridiculous shutter speeds AND it has been used as a make shift support for my SLR and the occassional ash tray.

It still works, and I have never had more fun with a camera while knowing that if I put the time and effort in, I will have a negative that I defy most experts to compare to cameras that couldn't be equipped with one of the two required lnes-caps for the priceof a Lubitel.

And yes, it was a KGB secret weapon - mine has lenses made out of Beria's eyeglasses and a strap woven out of Nikita's eye-brows

I love my Lubitel, and I can tell you this much - any TLR is like a rangefinder in a way - you don't understand what the big deal is until you use one and fall instantly in love with it. I say you DO need one, you will love it!!!

PS. Lubitel CLA is as simple as that on a meat grinder - DIY special if I ever saw one.

gnashings said:

Like with most Russian optics, I found that you have to spend a lot more to rival the qualityof the glass (at least in the two I have had, one that I still do).
Its simple to use and impossible to break unless you drop it on concrete amd/or kick it with a steel-toe boot.

While I knew that my TLR experience, consisting solely of a Lubitel at this point, would not meet the rarified standards of the people who sneer at things that don't say Haselblad, Leica or Rollei on them - I think the little camera deserves better than it gets (and yes, I may have sentiment on my side - I got my first one when I was 10!).

Click to expand...

Believe it or not, I agree with you totally. The Lubitel lens is not at all bad and you can take good pictures with a Lubitel if you know what you are doing and are willing to put the work in which is necessary to overcome its design faults (which mainly affect the viewfinder).

BUT - for the kind of candid/off-the-wall pictures you are talking about, it is handy if you have a larger (f3.5) lens which you can focus accurately at full aperture and a shutter which is also accurate and has speeds down to a full second. Considering that in the UK a late-model Rolleicord or an early Mamiya can be had for £100 or less, a Lubitel for me personally is just too much work. I have owned many TLRs, including Mamiyas (C3, C330f, C330s) and several Rolleiflex Ts, probably my all-time favorite. I now have just a Rolleicord Va which I take out now and again, although the passage of the years has dimmed its viewfinder mirror a little and also not improved its owner's eyesight! I never sneer at anyone's choice of equipment and recognize that a minimalist approach (e.g. LOMO, etc.) can be refreshing. What I am saying, however, is that I think a BEGINNER whose first TLR was a Lubitel would be needlessly confused and discouraged.

Regards,

David

My comments were meant as tongue-in-cheek as I think yours were, David
I just had to show my righteous proletarian indignation!

I certainly agree that if you can afford it, and/or if you do not have the nostalgia aspect attached to a Lubitel, well, there is a lot out there that would be a better camera choice for beginner or seasoned photog alike!
I still consider myself a beginner, but I like things that make me work for results - I like cars that bite back when the driver does something silly, I have Stevie Ray Vaughan - grade strings on my guitars, I guess focusing a Lubitel is somewhat akin to those examples

Mainly though, I have one because I had one when I was a kid, and it makes me feel good to have one now. The funny thing is, now I mainly use it for landscapes (well, actually, tree-scapes - I've been on this tree kick lately...) so it no longer gets swung around by the strap

It still sits on coffee shop tables though, and its a perfect weapon against shy little animals. Park it on the floor, wait until the shiny lenses make the critter curious and squeeze the shutter cable... and once in about 10 you get a really interesting picture.

On a more serious note, I find that a camera that really makes you sweat makes you pay more attention, think your shots through, etc. That, combined with 12 frames on a roll (not like 35 mm...) usually makes for more thoughtful picture taking.

When not swinging by the strap that is