TLR frame overlap problem.

BAP888 · Apr 21, 2022

I recently got my Ricohmatic 225 back from being CLA'd. It's a typical crank-advance TLR with an automatic frame counter (no red window). I know that because 120 film doesn't have sprockets, frame spacing is tougher, and I'm not expecting it to be perfectly even, but on my most recent roll of film (Gold 200, so it's not a poorly-manufactured roll of film) several frames heavily overlap each other. Wondering if there's any quick fixes people can recommend short of sending it back out for repair (again). I'd rather not be without the camera for another 6-8 weeks.

I've noticed that the metal tabs that sit behind the feed roll and the take-up roll aren't as tight as on my other TLR - when I go to remove a roll, the corner of the roll hardly pops up at all.

Also, I'm wondering if it has anything to do with my technique. The manual says not to change the shutter speeds when the shutter is cocked, so my technique has been to take a shot and only advance to the next frame immediately before I take the next shot, since turning the crank also cocks the shutter. Maybe it would be different if I advanced immediately after taking a picture?

Regardless, it's super frustrating to work hard to craft a nice shot and then find out that 1/4 of the frame overlaps with another shot.

BrianShaw · Apr 21, 2022

I don't know the details of that specific TLR, but you can safely assume that if the frame spacing is off by 1/4 frame there is a significant problem with the film transport system. You should inform your repair-person and send it back to have the problem fixed. "Quick fix" is not likely and would be foolish if you paid to have the camera overhauled and it didn't come back overhauled properly.

Although... I would probably look into tightening the tensioners on the film transport if they are really loose. And I would double-check my film loading technique to ensure that the paper is properly in the take-up spool.

BAP888 · Apr 21, 2022

BrianShaw said:
I don't know the details of that specific TLR, but you can safely assume that if the frame spacing is off by 1/4 frame there is a significant problem with the film transport system. You should inform your repair-person and send it back to have the problem fixed. "Quick fix" is not likely and would be foolish if you paid to have the camera overhauled and it didn't come back overhauled properly.

Although... I would probably look into tightening the tensioners on the film transport if they are really loose. And I would double-check my film loading technique to ensure that the paper is properly in the take-up spool.

Thanks. It's just so erratic that it's had me wondering whether it's me or the camera. One roll only had a smidge of overlap on one frame, although every roll I've put through it has had frames much too close for comfort.

BrianShaw · Apr 21, 2022

Are you able to transport film through the camera with the back open? If so, I'd put a blank backing paper through (or a sacrificial roll of film) and observe the operation. It might not be exactly like when the back is closed but it might help you see why the film transport is erratic.

This would be cheap and easy, plus if it end up being something hte repair shop needs to fix.... you'd have more information to provide to facilitate the diagnosis and repair.

The only time I've had erratic behavior like that was in a camera where the supply spool was too loose. Tightening the tensioner fixed the problem.

BAP888 · Apr 21, 2022

BrianShaw said:
Are you able to transport film through the camera with the back open? If so, I'd put a blank backing paper through (or a sacrificial roll of film) and observe the operation. It might not be exactly like when the back is closed but it might help you see why the film transport is erratic.

This would be cheap and easy, plus if it end up being something hte repair shop needs to fix.... you'd have more information to provide to facilitate the diagnosis and repair.

The only time I've had erratic behavior like that was in a camera where the supply spool was too loose. Tightening the tensioner fixed the problem.

I'd have to use a piece of tape or something to hold down the pin that resets the frame counter when you open the camera, but I should be able to jury-rig something.

And my hunch is that the tensioners are the problem. They don't seem to apply a lot of force to spools: whether they're empty or full, they don't "pop" out of the camera much when released. I'm hesitant to mess with them myself, though, for fear of making things worse.

BrianShaw · Apr 21, 2022

I wouldn't expect a "pop" but if they are not holding the film taut throughout the entire roll... that could be your problem. Good luck!

Sirius Glass · Apr 21, 2022

BAP888 said:
I recently got my Ricohmatic 225 back from being CLA'd. It's a typical crank-advance TLR with an automatic frame counter (no red window). I know that because 120 film doesn't have sprockets, frame spacing is tougher, and I'm not expecting it to be perfectly even, but on my most recent roll of film (Gold 200, so it's not a poorly-manufactured roll of film) several frames heavily overlap each other. Wondering if there's any quick fixes people can recommend short of sending it back out for repair (again). I'd rather not be without the camera for another 6-8 weeks.

I've noticed that the metal tabs that sit behind the feed roll and the take-up roll aren't as tight as on my other TLR - when I go to remove a roll, the corner of the roll hardly pops up at all.

Also, I'm wondering if it has anything to do with my technique. The manual says not to change the shutter speeds when the shutter is cocked, so my technique has been to take a shot and only advance to the next frame immediately before I take the next shot, since turning the crank also cocks the shutter. Maybe it would be different if I advanced immediately after taking a picture?

Regardless, it's super frustrating to work hard to craft a nice shot and then find out that 1/4 of the frame overlaps with another shot.

The spacing should not be so far off. Talk to the person that did the CLA. The CLA should have corrected the overlap. You will probably have to send the camera back for this to be corrected. Do not mess with it yourself.

Dan Daniel · Apr 21, 2022

Have you talked to the person who did the CLA? Something isn't right. Was it dong this before you sent it out?

Oh, ok. echoing Sirius Glass here, didn't see his comment.

Frame overlap is NOT from a loose gearing drive. Slippage in this part of the system would lead to excessive frame spacing as movement of the film is not registering on the frame spacing system.

BAP888 · Apr 21, 2022

Dan Daniel said:
Have you talked to the person who did the CLA? Something isn't right. Was it dong this before you sent it out?

Oh, ok. echoing Sirius Glass here, didn't see his comment.

Frame overlap is NOT from a loose gearing drive. Slippage in this part of the system would lead to excessive frame spacing as movement of the film is not registering on the frame spacing system.

I didn't run a roll through it before I sent it off to get CLA'd, so I wasn't aware of the issue beforehand. It came to me from eBay with an obviously sticky shutter and a few other issues, so I just sent it off to my guy (Jim at Vermont Camera Works, who's generally been great) shortly after receiving it. I'm hoping I won't get charged for another repair; IMO ensuring accurate frame spacing is something a repair technician ought to check in the course of a CLA.

MattKing · Apr 21, 2022

Most likely it will need additional service.
However, just in case, make sure that the mechanism isn't permitting you to take your next photo after only advancing the film 3/4 of a frame.
Some cameras release the multi-exposure protection function a bit too early.
With those cameras, you have to be careful that you advance the film fully before you take the next photo.

Sirius Glass · Apr 21, 2022

BAP888 said:
I didn't run a roll through it before I sent it off to get CLA'd, so I wasn't aware of the issue beforehand. It came to me from eBay with an obviously sticky shutter and a few other issues, so I just sent it off to my guy (Jim at Vermont Camera Works, who's generally been great) shortly after receiving it. I'm hoping I won't get charged for another repair; IMO ensuring accurate frame spacing is something a repair technician ought to check in the course of a CLA.

Best of luck with that.

BrianShaw · Apr 21, 2022

BAP888 said:
I didn't run a roll through it before I sent it off to get CLA'd, so I wasn't aware of the issue beforehand. It came to me from eBay with an obviously sticky shutter and a few other issues, so I just sent it off to my guy (Jim at Vermont Camera Works, who's generally been great) shortly after receiving it. I'm hoping I won't get charged for another repair; IMO ensuring accurate frame spacing is something a repair technician ought to check in the course of a CLA.

You might want to review the transaction details. Was both shutter and body overhaul included in the services provided? I’ve seen stories where someone sent their camera off for one to be overhauled only to find out that the other need overhaul but wasn’t part of the deal. I don’t know why anyone would operate that way because all-or-none is a much better and less problematic approach.

Marcelo Paniagua · Apr 21, 2022

BrianShaw said:
You might want to review the transaction details. Was both shutter and body overhaul included in the services provided? I’ve seen stories where someone sent their camera off for one to be overhauled only to find out that the other need overhaul but wasn’t part of the deal. I don’t know why anyone would operate that way because all-or-none is a much better and less problematic approach.

Agree. But probably the technician assumed the CLA was for the shutter only? Matt I would contact technician to check exactly what was done to camera. Looks to me that advance mechanism wasnt touched.

Marcelo

BAP888 · Apr 21, 2022

BrianShaw said:
You might want to review the transaction details. Was both shutter and body overhaul included in the services provided? I’ve seen stories where someone sent their camera off for one to be overhauled only to find out that the other need overhaul but wasn’t part of the deal. I don’t know why anyone would operate that way because all-or-none is a much better and less problematic approach.

I listed particular problems I noticed, but also included a request for the technician to inspect the camera and repair anything else necessary to return the camera to good working order. Apparently he didn't catch this issue.

That said, the initial repair wasn't especially pricy ($129 + shipping to restore shutter, repair some minor impact damage, fix a sticky focusing hood, tighten up the meter assembly, and clean/lubricate everything, and he even patched up the leatherette a bit). If I have to pay a bit more to fix this issue, I suppose that's fine. I just really don't want to be without the camera for another 6-8 weeks. Maybe they'll agree to move me to the front of the line.

shutterfinger · Apr 21, 2022

https://www.cameramanuals.org/ricoh_pdf/ricohmatic_225.pdf

Is the film tight on the take up spool after removing it from the camera?

When loading any 120 film camera put the narrow end of the backing paper through the slot until the wider portion of the paper is against the slot then bend the tip of the paper sticking through the slot the opposite direction of the wind and hold, advance the wind until the incoming paper is holding the tip is being held by the incoming paper.even if the start arrows are slightlu past the start mark on the camera or film holder. This prevents the film from slipping on the takeup during winding.

Where on the roll are the overlapped frames?

Sirius Glass · Apr 21, 2022

shutterfinger said:
https://www.cameramanuals.org/ricoh_pdf/ricohmatic_225.pdf
Is the film tight on the take up spool after removing it from the camera?

When loading any 120 film camera put the narrow end of the backing paper through the slot until the wider portion of the paper is against the slot then bend the tip of the paper sticking through the slot the opposite direction of the wind and hold, advance the wind until the incoming paper is holding the tip is being held by the incoming paper.even if the start arrows are slightlu past the start mark on the camera or film holder. This prevents the film from slipping on the takeup during winding.

Where on the roll are the overlapped frames?

Excellent point

BAP888 · Apr 22, 2022

Posting some pictures for context. The strip of color negs is the roll of Gold in question. Most are OK, but frames 4/5 and 6/7 have overlap (especially severe on 4/5).

Strangely, however, the spacing on a roll of Konica IR a shot just a few days later is fine.

Maybe I just didn’t turn the advance crank with enough authority?

MattKing · Apr 22, 2022

BAP888 said:
Maybe I just didn’t turn the advance crank with enough authority?

With my cameras, if I don't wind the film fully, they are designed to prevent taking the next shot.
Your camera might not include that safety interlock in its design, or that interlock may require service.

shutterfinger · Apr 22, 2022

I'm seeing two things on the Gold 200 negatives not previously covered. The image is not centered on the film, wide rebate on the left, narrow on the right. There are dark spots along the edges in various places on both sides. These suggest the film was not loaded properly.

With the back open, interlock set like the back is closed, 1. with an empty spool in the supply, turn the spool with your fingers using as light of pressure as possible. Does the spool turn smoothly and even pressure throughout the turns? 2. place the spool in the take up position and turn the crank, trip the shutter, turn the crank. Apply light to medium pressure on the spool while operating the crank. Does the take up turn smoothly and evenly?

grat · Apr 22, 2022

In the "crazy talk" category... Is it possible the spools weren't fully seated? That could cause the horizontal offset.

TLR frame overlap problem.

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