Tired of film-users bashing

I'm 16, and pretty much all I get is respect for using film (from friends and family and whatnot). A friend of mine uses digital, because he sees film as too expensive. A friend of his family actually gave him a Nikkormat FT, so he wants to get better at photography with his digital camera, so that he can waste as little film as possible. He has a great respect for film and digital, and so do I.

I think most of the film bashers are people going through a mid life crisis. In the audiophile world, the people who waste the most money, are the most militant, and experience the most denile are the 40-50 year olds whose hearing is starting to go. I assume that the people who bash film to no end do so because their eyesight is going (the average person's eyesight peaks during their mid-thirties, then starts declining).

AutumnJazz said:

I think most of the film bashers are people going through a mid life crisis.

Click to expand...

Well, for 16 years of age, you express some very grown up opinions... beware, maybe your own midlife crisis is already on the way!!

AutumnJazz said:

I'm 16, and pretty much all I get is respect for using film (from friends and family and whatnot).

Click to expand...

Yes, you're right, most ordinary people react very positively, it's just some of the shop keepers wanting you to bang some heads sometimes... Especially when being out there with special camera's like an MF or LF viewcamera, most people just admire you

Why are you worrked about what a bunch of dumb shits who work in a camera store think? Produce photographs and leave the idiots to their pixelography and ignorance. Shoot film, not 'analogue' and take some good photos. Life is too short to worry about idiots.

These are my thoughts on the whole thing.

First off, as a whole, we are a mindless society - heavily influenced by media and television programs and advertising (the horrors of the last 8 years would not have happened if we weren't). Most people follow the flow without questioning it much.

Computers and digital items are a high profit market (especially in an age where there is little manufacturing except for the low quality garbage from China that we are now primarily forced to buy) and the whole thing has been rammed down society's throat to the point where noone stops and thinks about it anymore.
I can still live quite happily without a computer, anyone else? Do you feel a little funny letting yourself become dependant on a plastic appliance? Other than shopping, emails, and posting pictures I don't have much use for one - I find digital photography boring and most of it is overly contrived -so I could live without that too. To me, it's another toy in a world with too many toys.

Film is an artisitic medium - no different a choice than using oil paint on canvas, or water color on paper, or pushing buttons to make a photo.
Digital is not a bad thing and it is a boon to photojournalism and other (mostly) lower quality applications. But if you can not appreciate the beauty a of silver gelatin (or platinum or albumen or whatever) print and understand the need for artists to keep producing them - I would say you are somewhat of a Philistine.

I think the main reason - money above all - manufacturers and photo suppliers push digital so hard is that it is much cheaper and easier to deal with than film - plastic equipment and capture mediums that are relatively cheap to produce (in comparison to producing film and cameras/lenses to shoot film) and incredibly cheap to stock in stores (minimal shelf space, no expirations, no need for refridgeration) - and the profits are, in turn, much higher.
Believe me, record stores were ecstatic when they didn't have to find space for big LP records and only had to stock little CD's (dumped LP's like a hot potatoe - and it's extremely interesting that 20 years later, serious audiophiles and bands that really care about music are still listening to and producing analogue albums).

I think there will always be real artists in the world - and I think in the photographic world - most of those artists will be using film. Freestyle, Silverprint, Harmon Industries, Adox and others all seem to realise this (and Kodak might even be getting the message) and I think they will stand behind us as long as we work enough to keep them in business. I also think our ranks will continue to grow - I can't tell you how many digital photographers I've encountered who seemed to have walked into a traditional darkroom (had some sort of epiphany) and decided not return to their sterile keyboard and monitor.

My method of dealing with the digital only people is to ignore them and continue with what I love to do. Of course, if you're up for it, it's not a bad idea to educate or enlighten them a little.
Anyway, I'm feeling a bit creative - I think I'll go down to the darkroom and get a little fixer on my hands.

Supplies

kristopher_lawrence said:

Seriously, Ottawa is a bad place for film photographers...


Kris

Click to expand...

Don't let them jazz you, Kristopher. If they won't sell to you, or order for you, find somebody who will, and give them your business.

There have already been a couple of replies as to where to get supplies; I get most of mine from Freestyle Photo (www. Freestylephoto.biz). They are great people to deal with.

For chemicals, I get them direct from the source; see this thread: (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Drop me a PM if you have any questions.

kristopher_lawrence said:

I am simply tired, I can't stand it anymore.
Long live film!
Kris

Click to expand...

I think there's no reason to feel resentful towards the current photo market. Analog photography has ceased to be mainstream and has, instead, become a niche. Naturally, we are going to have problems with product availability, prices, services, etc. Here in the Twin Cities, one can still find photo stores that carry analog film, paper, darkroom equipment, etc. The sales people seem very knowledgeable. All of these vendors sell primarily digital gear, including camcorders, printers, batteries, etc., but they have not discontinued their analog inventories. I hope they never do, but, realistically, they probably will. It will be strictly a business decision, I am afraid.

In my kit, my big EOS 1N running Velvia 100F or 50 is joined by an old Fuji E900 digicam which was purchased in Queenstown, New Zealand in November 2005 when my much loved Olympus XA came to grief on a mountain bike ride at The Remarkables. This little gizmo, my only concession to digital (I don't even print from it on a printer, though some shots go through to the high street lab for mementos) is handy to reconnoitre and assess scenes, viewpoints and overall 'fit' (I set it to frame the size as 35mm). It's also handy for my long road bike rides, though it's bulk is a handicap. Velvia and some Kodak tranny film is available where I am (Australia), as is Ilford B&W films, but E6 is becoming harder and more expensive to find. Let the knockers never forget this: film is still the gold standard in imaging and its highly amusing for me to observe digicammers lining up behind me to get the shot that I am getting!

I am more troubled by the complete and utter, blase detachment of digital technophiles who do all their metering and composure via that squinty little LCD screen on the back, pushing buttons, rotating dials, deleting, firing, deleting, firing (etc., etc., etc.!!). One recently had the temerity to tell me that the histogram was "my guarantee of a perfect image every time", adding with a leering scoff at my kit that "film is so yesteryear..." It seems we're stuck with these show offs!!:rolleyes:

Kris,

You don't need to order film from freestyle, B&H, etc. Henry's in Toronto, Thecamerastore in Calgary will glady ship to you. If you order from Calgary, there's no PST! You won't have to worry about friggin' brokerage fees either. Keep the Loonie in Canada!

Poisson Du Jour said:

... One recently had the temerity to tell me that the histogram was "my guarantee of a perfect image every time", adding with a leering scoff at my kit that "film is so yesteryear..." It seems we're stuck with these show offs!!:rolleyes:

Click to expand...

No kidding. I think it's best to just roll the eyes, chuckle, and move on ahead.

There are all sorts of horse's rear-ends the world over, and, well, some of them are to be found in the field of photography.

Adam

Andrew O'Neill said:

Kris,

You don't need to order film from freestyle, B&H, etc. Henry's in Toronto, Thecamerastore in Calgary will glady ship to you. If you order from Calgary, there's no PST! You won't have to worry about friggin' brokerage fees either. Keep the Loonie in Canada!

Click to expand...

I've more or less said this in an earlier post but if you are located in Ottawa ON, Henrys in Ottawa (there are at least 4 of them) can ship anything they carry to the store for you and they carry the "basics", for a wider range www.bigcameraworkshops.com is a good option and they are in ON.
The Montreal stores already mentioned have a good reputation although I can't say I've personally used them.

One of the last semi-good camera shops in Windsor ON had an employee who abused customers on a daily basis. His favourite pass-time was to ask you a trick question and then "surprise" you with the answer, which was usually only half correct in the first place.

Well, they're out of business now. (where is the surprise?) I just went in and bought all their remaining paper at an amazing discount... hooray for me!

It gets better... I just heard today that this guy is now working at Blacks!

Cheers,

Digital is like shaved legs on a man - very smooth and clean but there is something acutely disconcerting about it. Digital fanaticism is for people whose depth can be measured in pixels. As always, those who embrace digital 'absolutely' are looking for a silver bullet to 'make them an instant photographer.' Well, they get their wish. Instant images - lots of 'em - instantly forgettable. A lot of these sales clerks who push digital hard, know specs and cameras but know nothing about making images. That matters - the tool is only the means to an end. The most impressive photographers I have met or whose work I have seen shoot film. Who cares what a salesman thinks when he may well be selling photocopiers next month? Once again, it makes you appreciate Ilford and their efforts to hold it together all the more....

Tom Stanworth said:

Digital is like shaved legs on a man - very smooth and clean but there is something acutely disconcerting about it.

Click to expand...

Oh my, I think I just found my new signature...that's a riot!

Hrm. I work with a lot of people in bicycling industries (competition, messengers, etc.), and those guys would be giving that summary one very odd, displeased look. Competition do it for streamlining, while messengers do it to make cleaning up a bad road rash (and removing bandages) a lot easier. I find it's more apropos to look at that digital is to film these days like buying cheap, but stylish clothes at a major chain are to well-made, timeless-designed threads from a dressmaker or tailor who still knows how to cut and sew custom fittings for your specific needs. One is quick convenience, while the other a commitment (and with commitment, more control through alterations and customizations, not unlike the latitude of a darkroom).

Locally, I tend to just avoid the places which have wholesale abandoned film products and equipment, as it quickly becomes obvious the bias by what one finds in the window display. We have a camera repair specialist here in town whose shop I recently walked into for the first time. He treated me respectfully when I asked about Canonets (my Pentax 645 was slung from my shoulder at the time, which -- who knows? -- might have altered his perception of my prior knowledge versus other women who walk into his store). It appears that he works on nothing but film bodies and lenses (or if he works on digital stuff, it's a minority share of his time), as the equipment he resells is all well-serviced film gear -- from vintage 35mm rangefinders to large format gear. I only wonder who'll succeed him after he retires. There just aren't many people like that anymore.

Originally posted by Tom Stanworth

"...Digital is like shaved legs on a man - very smooth and clean but there is something acutely disconcerting about it."

Click to expand...

er...um...hmmm...As a road cyclist, I am looking at the comment obliquely. "Acutely disconcerting" it might appear to the detached, but the practice has a very good purpose: easy to stitch up, bandage/re-bandage and clean! The only downside is the waxing: atrocious!!! I can appreciate the analogy with digital though. I just cannot fathom what the attraction with digital is; technophiles I bump into in the rainforest are hunched over the little LCD and constantly reshooting. To me, that's not skilled photography. Worse, they now rarely study the scene through the viewfinder (what we of the visual arts education term "seeing with—not just through—the camera"). It's a whole new kind of beast I'm seeking armed with cameras that have been usurped by, and have a total reliance on, a computer at the other end. Ugh—!

Kris, the dealer that wants to push digital over film is like the vast majority of camera store owners and more interested in money than photography. I wouldn't give a hoot what any of them think.

Fintan said:

Kris, the dealer that wants to push digital over film is like the vast majority of camera store owners and more interested in money than photography. I wouldn't give a hoot what any of them think.

Click to expand...

I am afraid that is exactly THE problem. Photography is driven by business people, not photographers.

But, then if sport, other arts, health, even life are businesses today, photography can't be exception.

And, by the way, as I understand capitalism, it is all about making money, and making as much as possibile, so it is all normal.

Tom Stanworth said:

Digital is like shaved legs on a man - very smooth and clean but there is something acutely disconcerting about it. Digital fanaticism is for people whose depth can be measured in pixels. As always, those who embrace digital 'absolutely' are looking for a silver bullet to 'make them an instant photographer.' Well, they get their wish. Instant images - lots of 'em - instantly forgettable. A lot of these sales clerks who push digital hard, know specs and cameras but know nothing about making images. That matters - the tool is only the means to an end. The most impressive photographers I have met or whose work I have seen shoot film. Who cares what a salesman thinks when he may well be selling photocopiers next month? Once again, it makes you appreciate Ilford and their efforts to hold it together all the more....

Click to expand...

At the store I worked at we made very little off of prints. We made much more off of inkjet enlargements and sales of digital cameras. Canon paid us extra to sell only Canon cameras. I think the owner lost money by stocking film (which didn't sell nearly as well as other things)..

I wouldn't support them.. your money is better sent to a company which supports what you like doing.

Just flip them the bird and move on.
Life's too short to be wasted and too sweat to be spoiled by assholes.

I would have told that manager to stuff it. You were supporting his store, and it's a pretty f-ed up attitude to be complaining about you spending money there.

I have a different situation here in Minneapolis where there's a chain of stores that still try to support film. They are happy to talk about how good Delta 3200 looks in portraiture and some of the staff are really eager to discuss these things.
One thing is definitely obvious though, they don't know as much as they used to. All the good analog people disappeared from that world (mostly anyway), and now you get to talk to sales people.

The way of things is definitely to shop where your product is supported. I would suggest online retail, as you'll get a better price, and you help that store you bought your enlarger bulb from go under faster.

I wholeheartedly agree that people's attitude against film (ignorance?) is exactly why it's not going as well as it once did.
However, and this is important, remember that most consumers don't really study and examine what the marketing departments at the digital camera manufacturers are teaching them. They just swallow the bait, warts and all.

People are creatures of habit that are easy to influence. If you hear something enough times you just might start believing it, even if it isn't always true.

- Thomas

kristopher_lawrence said:

Hi,

This post is mainly written because I am tired of being bashed by dealer who want to sell digital only, that try to convince me that digital is the only way now. Its not about the debate digi vs film, I just need some reassurance...

If you live at Ottawa, you surely know that film users are abandonned. In one week, I have been facing rough comments on the fact I use film. The manager at Black's photo on Sparks street was arguing virulently that Kodachrome has been completely discontinued... The clerck at Black's in Rideau center was refusing to send out Kodachrome for me until the manager told him it was possible. And moreover, another manager, at another photo store, betted me that Kodak would be out of film buisness in two years just after I buyed a bulb for my enlarger.

What kills film, is people saying that it is dead. I tell them about Adox efforts in bringing back AGFA stuff, they say Adox will go bancrupsy soon... I tell them about some marvelous photo stores in montreal that cares about film (Camtec, Photoservice, Lozeau in some way, Boreal printing etc...) they say that helping film users «is not buisiness wise».

I am simply tired, I can't stand it anymore. Curiously, most «normal» persons, after they get to know I use film, think I know my photographic stuff. On the contrary, shop clerks, are always treating me as a rebel that don't want to enter the crowd of digital. No argument can convice them, they simply think I am trying to be exuberant. Maybe I should show them some pictures...

Seriously, Ottawa is a bad place for film photographers...

Thanks for reading me, I needed to tell this to someone. However, when I see the growing numbers of APUG members, I get reassured since I know there is a lot more lurkers around too.

Long live film!

Kris

Click to expand...

Tom Stanworth said:

Digital is like shaved legs on a man - very smooth and clean but there is something acutely disconcerting about it. Digital fanaticism is for people whose depth can be measured in pixels.

Click to expand...

That's a good one, Tom. It's like saying that a given politician's support is a mile wide and an inch deep!

When out on a shoot, I have yet to show my two motorized Nikon Fs to a professional photographer who is shooting digital, and not get a comment to the effect of, "...Wow! I used to own a couple of those but had to sell them to go digital..."

It's not the true, working pros who are making the snide comments about film based photography, but the wannabes, who tend to cluster around the fringes of photography, selling digital cameras and TALKING about photography, instead of making images.

I was shopping at my local photo store this weekend. They had no analog cameras and told me that there was no demand for them at all, nor were there any good analog cameras in the low price range. They were doing a big business with the local schools on analog film for existing cameras and on process chemistry. They can still get C-41 and RA chemistry with no problem and had just filled a large order for one customer.

I have always had polite conversation with digital and analog dealers and users. The most curiosity came from a student about 5 years ago using a Kodak Digital SLR and I had my Bronica ETRSi with a 500 mm lens. We talked for quite a while about analog vs digital and he said that he was required to use digital by his employer in order to meet the newspaper deadlines.

PE

I was at a large photography business in Providence, RI a few weeks ago..and asked about used LF equipment. the young clerk, standing in front of the film sales rack, said, Are you kidding me; We give that equipment a couple of days to sell, then if it is still around, one of us buys it! He was a student of RISD. Film is not dead...its just going to take a while for others to realize it is alive and well.

Poisson Du Jour said:

Originally posted by Tom Stanworth
er...um...hmmm...As a road cyclist, I am looking at the comment obliquely. "Acutely disconcerting" it might appear to the detached, but the practice has a very good purpose: easy to stitch up, bandage/re-bandage and clean! The only downside is the waxing: atrocious!!!

Click to expand...

When a cyclist is in context, IE: Cycling, nothing looks out of sorts, including the shaved legs.

But when a roadie is out on the town in shorts among ladies sporting those heavenly thighs, seeing a man with shaved legs is well, at first, "Acutely Disconcerting"....