Tired of anti-digital threads

papagene · Aug 4, 2004

As I said in my previous post, I have no interest in using any form of digital capture, manipulation or output for my artistic expression. If film disappears, I'll go back to sculpture and painting and not forward(?) to digital.
I gotta have some kind of manual, hands-on process.
The only aquiesence to (ugh) digital is to scan a print for view on a site such as this. If I could hold a print up to the screen so all can see it, I would. But over-the-counter computers aren't that sophisticated yet. In the mean time...
PLEASE ANALOG ONLY!
gene

anyte · Aug 4, 2004

steve said:
Just so I'm really clear on this -- Let's use an example.

Print immediately loses "soul" upon being exposed to inkjet printing - print and process can no longer be discussed on APUG.

I'm a bit confused .... but, I think I get the gist of the message - "don't confuse me with things I don't want to understand or try out."

Considering you seem to be attributing to me comments made by someone else I would agree - you are cofused.

I don't even understand any of the processes you mentioned. I shoot photos using a Minolta in full manual mode - including focus. I take my film to a lab and have it processed. I then seek advice online in order to grow and improve. There are dozens of sites dealing with digital photography that explain the techniques empolyed in digital photography - none of which is any benefit to me. In addition, analog photography is talked about in very negative terms. This is my safe haven - the place where I don't have to deal with the offensive comments and where I can learn about what I do and enjoy - analog photography.

"Don't confuse me with things I don't want to understand or try out" - Is that some kind of jab at people who aren't interested in digital photography? I imagine it is and that is part of that "pro digital" attitude that I'm tired of being subjected to. There is no crime in a person not being interested in digital photography. It's a preference like anything else. There is no cause for anyone to be insulting about it.

WarEaglemtn · Aug 16, 2004

I don't actually know what an "analog" is. I thought Anastigmat was George Eastmans long lost love, but Analog I am not sure about. I do know what a photograph is. Carbon, platinum, silver & so many others. I know what negatives & slides are. I know what a pixelograph is and have even made a few.
Analog??? I take photographs.

If the pixelographers don't like people pissing on their parade, tough luck. Painters have done it to photographers for more than 150 years... the more things change, the more they stay the same.

Graeme Hird · Aug 17, 2004

It's an interesting study to read these threads. Most members of APUG came here to escape the endless talk of digital imagery, and yet the only discussion of digital photography is brought up by APUG members! I thought you were trying to promote analogue photography?

Can't everybody just ignore pixels on this forum? Then I won't be forced to defend digital workflows from uninformed attacks ....

glbeas · Aug 17, 2004

WarEaglemtn said:
I don't actually know what an "analog" is. I thought Anastigmat was George Eastmans long lost love, but Analog I am not sure about. I do know what a photograph is. Carbon, platinum, silver & so many others. I know what negatives & slides are. I know what a pixelograph is and have even made a few.
Analog??? I take photographs.

I think I found something for ya!
http://www.analogsf.com/0410/issue_10.shtml

mobtown_4x5 · Aug 17, 2004

Nice, glbeas!

roteague · Aug 17, 2004

Jorge said:
Go to the LF format forum and you will find threads like "Artix scanner a review" or "How to make B&W ink jet prints", etc, etc. I believe many people come here to get away from those threads. Is not that we dont want to know about them, or dont want to try them, it is simply that there are many places to find this kind of information.

I think you pretty well nailed it. The process of photography for me is much more than just taking a picture and printing it. The reason I shoot large format almost exclusively these days, is because it gets me to slow down, look, and feel. Digital takes away that (at least for me). I am no longer interested in how much I shoot, just how well I shoot. APUG is fast becoming one of the few places one can go and still talk about the process of making an image, not the process of manipulating it in Photoshop. I was looking at one of my favorite magazines website today, Outdoor Photographer, and see that the latest issue is almost exclusively digital related. No wonder I come here.

kwmullet · Aug 18, 2004

Perhaps an anti-digital rant getto?

I think it might be overly optimistic to hope that folks would restrain themselves for any lengthy period of time from ranting against digital.

I suggest that an anti-digital rant forum be created and once the tone of a given thread crosses the threshold into useless spleen venting and anti-digital angst, the thread could just be moved into that getto where everyone could continue on to their heart's content, but it would be exempt from new post searches and would hopefully run out of steam in a few days.

Basically, a spleen venting spitoon.

-KwM-

Dave Miller · Aug 18, 2004

kwmullet said:
I think it might be overly optimistic to hope that folks would restrain themselves for any lengthy period of time from ranting against digital.

I suggest that an anti-digital rant forum be created and once the tone of a given thread crosses the threshold into useless spleen venting and anti-digital angst, the thread could just be moved into that getto where everyone could continue on to their heart's content, but it would be exempt from new post searches and would hopefully run out of steam in a few days.

Basically, a spleen venting spitoon.

-KwM-

What an excellent idea.

wdemere · Aug 18, 2004

While I'm certainly against pointless rants about anything, I'm more concerned that the facts get out there for all to see. For example, how many people just getting into photography really understand that the cost of digital b&w photography compared to analog is somewhere on the order of 20-30 times more? How many people understand that a high-quality black & white print is very difficult, if not impossible, to obtain in digital, but that a light bulb, some Azo and some Amidol can do it in analog? There are countless other examples.

Maybe a "Why Analog" FAQ could be produced and kept on the site. That way, people wouldn't feel the need to rant about PhotoMallArt.net knowing that the information is available for those who want to know.

Now I'm ranting. I'll stop.

Thanks,

William

Black Dog · Aug 29, 2004

I'd buy a new Nikanolta digital schmidgital camera tomorrow if it really made me a better photographer........

steve · Sep 2, 2004

Sorry - only you can make you a better photographer. Unfortunately, no equipment purchase or photographic process can do that - but, then I suspect you probably already know this...

steve · Sep 2, 2004

"Rant" seems to be the "term-du-jour" Internet forums of all types. It usually involves someone who can't write four cogent sentences commenting upon a long post made by someone else.

todddineen · Sep 8, 2004

????

I have used both paper and film and digital formats, I think they are both great mediums for different types of photography, We really should be thankful that the computer industry has gotten far enough for us to share or art with everyone on the internet. Now that is wonderful....

roteague · Sep 8, 2004

Black Dog said:
I'd buy a new Nikanolta digital schmidgital camera tomorrow if it really made me a better photographer........

I don't think I would. While the image itself is important to me, the final print is even more so - the main reason I use high-quality materials for my prints. Digital just doesn't produce the quality I am looking for - yet.

photomc · Sep 9, 2004

I was thinking about this the other night..sums up my feeling about why I use film and analog cameras. I don't like food prepared in a microwave, it just does not taste as good, but use a microwave to heat something up, but some people can cook a very good meal with one; I don't like film processed in a one hour lab - they are to unpredictable, but some good work comes out of them.

There will be some very good and new work that comes from digital - and that is good. I just like making prints the 'old fashion way'

Andy K · Sep 9, 2004

Mike that is a very valid point. I have just this week bought a very cheap scanner which has the additional the ability to scan negatives (an Epson 2480). Until now all my prints have come from a kodak lab.

Out of curiosity I have scanned a few old negs of shots that did not pan out as I had planned, ie the contrast was way off or colours were too dark etc. and guess what? They DID work but the lab has been 'enhancing' them! Deepening colours... darkening bw shots etc. So many shots where the contrast was ruined in the print but is perfect on the neg! I am now going through nearly my entire collection of negatives!

Needless to say from now on I will no longer be getting prints from labs! I am setting up to develop my own bw negs and for colour I shall just get the negs developed without prints.

Eventually I plan to obtain an enlarger and make my own prints, but for now due to a lack of space for a darkroom, the scanner will have to suffice. Needs must etc.

anyte · Sep 9, 2004

photomc said:
I don't like food prepared in a microwave, it just does not taste as good, but use a microwave to heat something up, but some people can cook a very good meal with one; I don't like film processed in a one hour lab - they are to unpredictable, but some good work comes out of them.

Good point.

The analog vs. digital debate isn't even about cameras for me, it's about a preferred lifestyle. I still wash dishes by hand, I don't own a microwave, I don't make pancakes (or cakes or many other foods) from a box - I make it myself, and the list goes on. I simply enjoy the process and the results of my efforts. I don't enjoy washing dishes but the end result is one I'm happier with. I'm in the process of learning to make a solar oven - for fun you know.

papagene · Sep 9, 2004

anyte said:
The analog vs. digital debate isn't even about cameras for me, it's about a preferred lifestyle.

And that lifestyle is the freedom of choice. I CHOOSE to use analog materials and methods in my photography. I don't want to and will not be forced into switching to digital.
The right to choose - don't take that away.

gene

Les McLean · Sep 9, 2004

papagene said:
And that lifestyle is the freedom of choice. I CHOOSE to use analog materials and methods in my photography. I don't want to and will not be forced into switching to digital.
The right to choose - don't take that away.

gene

At the present time no one is forcing anyone to choose so using that as a reason not to try digital is pointless. Mike makes a very valid point when he suggests that some good work is being done on digital. I just like making images and if there is a chance that analogue is going to disappear I want to be in there still making images. Having said that I don't think we are seeing the end of analogue, it's being rationalised and life is moving on.

clogz · Sep 9, 2004

A seven bath developer...? One for each day of the week?

papagene · Sep 9, 2004

Les,
I highly respect your opinions and admire your skill and knowledge, but when marketing/advertising and editorial forces are seriously trumpeting the advantages of digital over analog; when on other forums the masses chime in with this Sirens song; and when I go to the local photo-store (I prefer to spend my money locally) and find the selection of traditional materials rapidly dwindling to almost nothing, I feel my choices are being limited, if not taken away.
If the marketing/advertising people would tout digital as an alternative, different choice, then I and many others wouldn't feel so threatened.
I sold cameras for ten years and I know first hand how the market is manipulated/hyped to get the customer to part with their hard earned money. Remember APC film and cameras? That was the next best thing since...
So when I decry my dwindling lack of choice, it is from an insiders point of view. I understand the hype game.
Respectfully,
gene

anyte · Sep 9, 2004

Les McLean said:
At the present time no one is forcing anyone to choose so using that as a reason not to try digital is pointless.

I have to disagree. I was looking at some photo contest through well known national magazines and all the prizes are all digial - digital cameras, books on digital photography, gift certificates for electronic stores that don't sell cameras but where you can buy printers, printers are another popular prize.

To me that feels like I'm being forced to choose something that doesn't suit me. Unless I'm willing to accept a "digital" prize there's no point to me entering a contest.

I have written letters asking about the prizes being offered and have not as yet received a reply.

Les McLean · Sep 9, 2004

Gene and anyte

I understand your views and very valid comments and to be honest my heart feels the same. However, my head tells me a different story, the sales and marketing people have fed the numbers to the bean counters who presented the budgets to the CEO who changed the direction of the company and we serious analogue users are the losers. I guess all I'm saying is that we few thousand analogue users cannot stop this monster from rolling and I'm damned if I'm going to be stopped from making images even if the medium is different from the silver that I love so much.

When digital first hit the market place I was as positive as you are that it was not going to affect me and I totally refused to get involved. I was fortunate to be working with some of the biggest UK photo companies and I never missed a chance to shout for the cause of analogue photography but have to say that I failed miserably to have any influence. Bless them, Ilford did try hard to continue to promote black and white analogue and look at what has happened to them. I'll never stop using film and making silver prints even if I have to start another learning curve if my favourite film and paper disappears but at the same time I'll continue to work with digital and I'm confident that the process will improve. To be honest unless photographers like us do work with it and push for improvements we have no chance of getting exactly what we want from digital of the future. I've also got to be honest and say that since I've started playing with digital the flame for traditional black and white photography has reignited for I was experiencing a very flat time in analogue.

Thanks to you both for your points and the way inwhich you made them, again the great comaradre of APUG comes flying through.

Andy K · Sep 9, 2004

I sincerely hope your pessimism for analogue is misplaced Les.

When they produce a digital camera that does not need batteries, I'll give it a go.

Tired of anti-digital threads

papagene

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roteague

photomc

Andy K

anyte

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Les McLean

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Tired of anti-digital threads

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