Tiny film stripes ruining the negs

ala · Jun 19, 2014

Is it just me or you also get a lot of tiny film stripes in your stabiliser and all over your negs?

I found out that after I wash the film in the stabiliser the solution turns into a horrible substance full of little brown dots and stripes. My guess is that these are the parts of the film itself which appear because of the film is beings scratched by the reel during loading/unloading.

Now I pour my stabiliser through the cotton cloth after every use and wipe the film with the cloth soaked in the stabiliser.

What do you do to eliminate the film damage?

darkosaric · Jun 19, 2014

Hi ala,

which film, stabilizer; temperature and concentrate? Can you explain in details your work flow?

Regards,

cliveh · Jun 19, 2014

It would be useful to know the film, chemistry and process you are using.

darkosaric · Jun 19, 2014

cliveh said:
It would be useful to know the film, chemistry and process you are using.

In the same second - same questions

yulia_s_rey · Jun 19, 2014

ala said:
Is it just me or you also get a lot of tiny film stripes in your stabiliser and all over your negs?

I found out that after I wash the film in the stabiliser the solution turns into a horrible substance full of little brown dots and stripes. My guess is that these are the parts of the film itself which appear because of the film is beings scratched by the reel during loading/unloading.

Now I pour my stabiliser through the cotton cloth after every use and wipe the film with the cloth soaked in the stabiliser.

What do you do to eliminate the film damage?

Never had this issue. Stabilizer always remained clear. However the only time I've ever seen "little brown dots/stripes" in any solution was with the developer. Old developer. Can you elaborate?

pentaxuser · Jun 19, 2014

As others have said, tell us everything about your process. Bore us with the detail. A lot of posters leave things out without meaning to and it always takes longer to arrive at a cause(s)

The more time you take to tell us everything, the shorter time we'll need to give you an answer.

pentaxuser

Gerald C Koch · Jun 19, 2014

Filtering a solution using a cloth as a filtration medium is not a good idea as fibers from the cloth may be introduced into the solution Use coffee filters or even better filter paper.

Xmas · Jun 19, 2014

ala said:
My guess is that these are the parts of the film itself which appear because of the film is beings scratched by the reel during loading/unloading.

We need you to inspect the film rebates carefully with magnifying glass to confirm guess. And why have you said unloading?

And yes it is easy to damage film loading it into spiral it needs to go on readily without force.

ala · Jun 19, 2014

Thank you all for the prompt replies!

I use the Jobo ATL 1000 machine, Rollei Digibase C-41 chemicals and this result appeared first when i processed 1xArfa Vista roll+Portra 400 and then it repeated with 1xAgfa Ultra+1xPortra400.

Both times those were 135 rolls and 270ml of every solution of the Developer/Bleach/Fixer.

After the machine was done i put the films into a separate container with 640ml of Stabilizer solution (576ml of water+64ml of Stabiliser as said in the manual) and was agitating it for 1:30 min as said in the manual.

I inspected the film edges, they have scratches on the very edges. It really looks like the stripes are coming from there. Posting the picture of this nasty stuff in a few minutes.

I mentioned loading and unloading assuming that these are the moments when the film's edges touch the plastic and can be scratched. This is only my silly guess because the film goes on and off the spiral easily without force.

Xmas · Jun 19, 2014

Ok sorry I unload reels by springing the film out so there is little opportunity for damage given the film is wet and the emulsion is soft.

I appreciate some people don't do that.

All I can suggest is soak the reels overnight in strong sodium carbonate solution and scrub the channels with used toothbrush afterwards.

Sometimes I get rebate damage loading but never with modern films like C41 and it is not extensive. And I do need to filter the stock solutions or discard afterwards...

Had all the films edge damage?

ala · Jun 19, 2014

Hi!

Here is the picture of this nasty stuff.

Unfortunately all my films have tiny scratches on their edges.

Xmas, thank you for the suggestion about soaking the reels. I will do it tonight. But i need to understand why the situation keeps repeating with all of my films... Do i really load or unload the film so badly?! hm...

Xmas · Jun 19, 2014

Hi

If the film loads into spirals easily you are good.

The spiral grooves need to be smooth low friction but if they are contaminated with stuck on shards of film it might cause your problem.

But I can get the same symptoms with some of the specialist films I use which have soft emulsions. Have your films been stored badly?

You could try two new films straight from retail shop. If there was a possibility of humidity in storage.

I have checked my last batch of 35mm and there are no mars in the emulsion layer edges - there is no evidence of spiral contact. And Im not a careful worker. Some is cine from 2000.

If you have debris Id filter the developer rather than final bath.

Photo Engineer · Jun 19, 2014

Seems that you had 2 different films in there. Any way to know where those things come from? If it came from both films, then there were scratches made during reel loading and / or unloading, but if there are no scratches on the Portra, I would guess that the other film is not hard enough. I have no experience with that other film.

PE

ala · Jun 19, 2014

Thank you all so much! I will soak my reels and wash them very well tonight.

Then I will make a new developed solution (it's a perfect timing, because the last time I prepared only 270ml and it's capacity is 3-6 rolls and I already processed 4).

Then I will take either 2x135 or 1x220 portra 400, which I bought a week ago. This way I will know if that mess was created by the reels or just an old film I processed earlier. I was storing my film in the freezer, but possibly some of these rolls were old. Unfortunately, I don't remember

Will post my results after the experiment.

Mr Bill · Jun 20, 2014

My guess is that these are the parts of the film itself...

I inspected the film edges, they have scratches on the very edges. It really looks like the stripes are coming from there. Posting the picture of this nasty stuff in a few minutes.

Hi, looking at your posted photo, I think you're probably right. In commercial processing, we called these film "skivings;" they're bits of gelatin shaved from the edge of the film. Typically this would only happen when the film was dry, and it generally was due to the edge of the film lightly scraping against a sharp corner.

I've never seen it happen to wet film, so I would be more suspicious of this happening in your camera. Except that it seems odd it would make it all the way to the last solution, stabilizer. (Your other solutions aren't full of it too, are they?)

If it were me, I'd use a magnifier to inspect the reels, looking for a burr that could rub on the edge of the film. Or a bent flange that presses against the film's edge. If no luck, I'd move on to the camera, using a magnifier to look for a small pile of dust (skivings) somewhere.

ps: if you want to confirm that the particles ARE bits of gelatin, you could mix a bit of Clorox-type bleach, something like 20 or 30% should be fine. While watching through a magnifier, put a drop of the bleach onto one of the particles, and see if it dissolves. If so, it's almost certainly film gelatin. (If there's any doubt, repeat the test using some particles that you scrape off the edge yourself.)

Gerald C Koch · Jun 20, 2014

A warm 1% solution of sodium carbonate (washing soda) is very useful as a soak to clean reels and tanks. The water should not be hot for plastic products. Soak the parts overnight and then rinse thoroughly. It is good to do this routinely depending on the frequency of use of the reels and tanks. Say once a month or so.

AgX · Jun 20, 2014

Photo Engineer said:
Seems that you had 2 different films in there. Any way to know where those things come from? If it came from both films, then there were scratches made during reel loading and / or unloading, but if there are no scratches on the Portra, I would guess that the other film is not hard enough. I have no experience with that other film.

PE

Those unknown films are the Agfa Ultra (50 from their 90's Triade range or most recent 100 version) and the Agfa Vista as their latest film. Thus it is no hardening issue.

Xmas · Jun 20, 2014

Humidity is the great film killer softens emulsions glues whole reels...

Xmas · Jun 20, 2014

Gerald C Koch said:
A warm 1% solution of sodium carbonate (washing soda) is very useful as a soak to clean reels and tanks. The water should not be hot for plastic products. Soak the parts overnight and then rinse thoroughly. It is good to do this routinely depending on the frequency of use of the reels and tanks. Say once a month or so.

Hot is better, but if you go hot i'd threat as 'safety googles only' as concentrated sodium carbonate solution is nasty.

ala · Jun 24, 2014

Hi to all! Thank you for all the information you shared, it is priceless!

Recently i remembered that i had one more reel that i never used, i washed it well, soaked in warm water and cleaned with an old toothbrush. Just in case.

I processed one roll with it. It was a brand new 220 roll of Kodak Portra 400.

Following the advices on this forum i deluted my stabiliser with twice more distilled water that it is said in the manual. (one forum member pointed out that there was a mistake in the Rollei Digibase Manual).

Everything came out clean. I've processed about 10 more rolls since then and had no more problems with those tiny stripes.

Tiny film stripes ruining the negs

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