Tiny droplets visible around high contrast edges

JobGroteB · Feb 18, 2024

Hi all,

I have developed my first roll of 35mm B&W film and I noticed all of my scans contain what looks like very small droplets. The droplets are specially visible around high contrast edges like the blinds in the attached picture.
I have searched all over the internet for common mistakes when developing film but I can't find anything like this. I used a Yashica Electro 35 GSN with Rollei Superpan 200 film. I developed using Ilford Ilfosol 3 and used an Ilford stopbath and fixer. I didn't use a wetting agent, but I don't see the water marks you would usually get when film hasn't dried properly. I finally scanned the image using an Epson V330.
Any idea how this might have happened and what I can do to prevent it? Could a wetting agent have prevented it?

Thanks in advance

xkaes · Feb 18, 2024

Those are very odd. I don't think a lack of a wetting agent would cause that, but the only way to know is to try it. Since the dots reflect the dark stripes on their opposite side, I have to think that they are in the scene, not created in the processing.

Mick Fagan · Feb 18, 2024

Looks a little like air bells, which are usually the result of insufficient agitation in the early stage of developing. In general I fill the tank, then give it a couple of whacks on the darkroom sink, then I agitate continuously for the first minute, then every time I place the tank down after an agitation period, I give it a small tap.

Can you describe your agitation technique please?

Sirius Glass · Feb 18, 2024

Welcome to Photrio

If it is air bells, each time a new solution it poured into the tank, thump the tank quickly several times just after the solution if first poured in. I found thumping the tank on a thick piece of linoleum from an art supply store provides the a thump that can move the air bells off the film without damaging the tank.

Bronson Dugnutt · Feb 18, 2024

Can you provide any other examples that better exhibit the defect? The droplets in this instance might as well be part of the exposure.

In any case, you'd have to pixel-peep pretty hard to ever notice.

Augustus Caesar · Feb 18, 2024

Why are you scanning? Anyway, I think it's in the scanner.

mshchem · Feb 18, 2024

Scanner

Sirius Glass · Feb 18, 2024

Please take photographs of the negatives to help resolve any scanner issue.

revdoc · Feb 19, 2024

Those defects don't look like a developer issue. They seem to be interacting with the image, i.e., there's a bright edge on the side closest to the dark part of the image, and a dark edge on the other. This looks like an actual liquid droplet between the neg and the scanner sensor.

koraks · Feb 19, 2024

Welcome to Photrion, @JobGroteB !

This is a really odd defect and I've never seen anything quite like this before. The first thing to do is to inspect the actual negative with a loupe/magnifier to see if the defect is visible on the film. If so, we'd have to look further in the direction of issues such as condensation etc. If the defect is not present on the film, it's scanner/scanning-related and then I'd start by thoroughly cleaning the glass platen of the scanner - possibly on both sides, requiring partial disassembly of the scanner.

Note that the anomaly isn't only present in high-contrast areas; it's just more visible there. It seems to be present all over the image; note the black spots here:

If you happen to be in the southern half of the country, feel free to drop by for coffee and we can have a look at your film together.

Dustin McAmera · Feb 19, 2024

They don't appear on the right side, where we can't see the window. Are you sure they aren't just raindrops on the window?

lamerko · Feb 19, 2024

Interesting. Refraction of light in the area of the droplets is clearly visible - they act as small lenses. Maybe condensation in the scanner?

grain elevator · Feb 19, 2024

Dustin McAmera said:
They don't appear on the right side, where we can't see the window. Are you sure they aren't just raindrops on the window?

This! They reflect the dark slats, that explains why they're only visible in their proximity. I don't quite understand how, but it seems that, as the drops act as lenses, they manage to be sharp even though the window is out of focus.

runswithsizzers · Feb 19, 2024

They do appear to be 3-dimensional water drops, photographed as part of the scene, so could be explained as water drops on the window glass. On the other hand, the window blinds appear to be much more out of focus than the water drops (it that is what they are). I would guess the blinds are probably less than a foot closer to the camera than the outside surface of the window glass, so I would expect them to similarly out of focus?

JobGroteB said:
Could a wetting agent have prevented it?

Maybe -- if applied to the outside of the window glass. ;-)

koraks · Feb 19, 2024

grain elevator said:
I don't quite understand how, but it seems that, as the drops act as lenses, they manage to be sharp even though the window is out of focus.

The only way I can see the drops on the glass being in focus and not the blinds is if the blinds are a considerable distance away from the glass. Which indeed is possible, so maybe they are actually droplets. And not magically in focus because of their geometry, but simply because they're quite far away from the blinds.

JobGroteB · Feb 19, 2024

Hi all,

Thanks for all the comments. I am excited to see this is an active and very knowledgeable community

The droplets are not part of the image. The glass was dry and the droplets appear on faces too.
I have scanned a slide twice and moved it slightly the second time to find out if the negatives or the scanner caused this. On the second scan the droplets appear in a different location which leads me to believe it is condensation inside the scanner.
I'll try to clean the glass or perhaps invest in a better scanner that is made specifically for scanning negatives.

koraks · Feb 19, 2024

Ah, great, that's a smart test you did there and I'm glad it gave you some insight into where the problem lies. No doubt this artefact is visible on the actual scanner glass; it should show up as tiny little droplets. I'm sure a thorough cleaning will help.

Sirius Glass · Feb 19, 2024

JobGroteB said:
Hi all,

Thanks for all the comments. I am excited to see this is an active and very knowledgeable community

The droplets are not part of the image. The glass was dry and the droplets appear on faces too.
I have scanned a slide twice and moved it slightly the second time to find out if the negatives or the scanner caused this. On the second scan the droplets appear in a different location which leads me to believe it is condensation inside the scanner.
I'll try to clean the glass or perhaps invest in a better scanner that is made specifically for scanning negatives.

Often complaints about film artifacts are traced back to scanning problems. Any time a method or technique is added to a process, there is a possibility of adding artifacts.

mshchem · Feb 19, 2024

Dustin McAmera said:
They don't appear on the right side, where we can't see the window. Are you sure they aren't just raindrops on the window?

This is what I thought on first look.

Kino · Feb 19, 2024

If your scanner is near an outside wall or window, and the temperature is very cold outside, you could be creating a temperature gradient inside the scanner itself that causes condensation on the back side of the glass.

The obvious solution would be to move the scanner, it this is the case...

monst · Feb 19, 2024

Could it be air bubbles forming from the stop bath, some films are prone to this.

Doremus Scudder · Feb 19, 2024

It looks like droplets because they are droplets... on the surface of the window behind the blinds. Not a defect.

Maybe you didn't notice them when photographing?

Doremus

dynachrome · Feb 19, 2024

Over the years I have seen many plastic developing tanks damaged by overzealous banging on the bottom to dislodge air bubbles. Inverting the tank and tapping it on the side with your palm will do just as good a job as banging but without damaging the tank.

Sirius Glass · Feb 19, 2024

dynachrome said:
Over the years I have seen many plastic developing tanks damaged by overzealous banging on the bottom to dislodge air bubbles. Inverting the tank and tapping it on the side with your palm will do just as good a job as banging but without damaging the tank.

That is exactly why I post that I use a block of linoleum from art supply stores to tap the tank against.

Augustus Caesar · Feb 20, 2024

dynachrome said:
Over the years I have seen many plastic developing tanks damaged by overzealous banging on the bottom to dislodge air bubbles. Inverting the tank and tapping it on the side with your palm will do just as good a job as banging but without damaging the tank.

I use a table with several layers of towel on it, which softens the impact of rapping the tank on it.

Tiny droplets visible around high contrast edges

JobGroteB

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