Tiny black spots - tearing my hair out

Photrio,

I've been combating this problem since last fall. I posted about it back in december and got some good insight, but alas nothing has fixed this issue.
With the majority of the film/developer combos I have tried, I am getting tiny, grain sized black spots on my negatives (black once scanned, white on the physical negative). It happens most prominently with TMY and Acros, in DDX and XTOL. It did not happen when I first started developing last summer using Ilfosol-3 with Acros, Delta 100 and TMY (that had been exposed 7 years prior and stored horribly improperly). My temperature is always within .5 degrees of 20c, usually bang on. I haven't been reusing any chemicals. I use Ilfostop and Ilford rapid fixer, as well as Kodak PhotoFlo. I recently juiced a roll of Delta 100 in DDX and it came out perfectly (a bit grainy, but none of these little rouge spots).
The photo I have attached is TMY in DDX.
Also worth noting is this happnes with stand dev, Fomapan in DDX.
Edit: Am now using only distilled water bought from the store. I did not have this issue with tap water/Ilfosol3.

Any insight would be awesome! I don't mind using Delta 100 or Ilfosol3, but there are times when I want a different look than either of those give me.

Could it be your water? I only use distilled water to mix my chemicals, as I’ve had problems in the past using tap water. The only other thing I could think of is either problems with the film and/or storage.

Have you tried using "only" distilled waster for all step in your development? If not, I would try that first and if that doesn't help then go to the next step like filtering fixer, developer or what not. Or possibly eliminating the stop bath and use just distilled water. Gotta start somewhere................JohnW

Edited to reflect that I have tried both and had better results with tap water.

mooseontheloose said:

Could it be your water? I only use distilled water to mix my chemicals, as I’ve had problems in the past using tap water. The only other thing I could think of is either problems with the film and/or storage.

Click to expand...

I know it isn't the water (see above), and I doubt its film storage because it's happened with film that's been at ambient temp for weeks and it's happened with film that came out of the fridge, warmed to ambient, exposed, then developed.

John Wiegerink said:

Have you tried using "only" distilled waster for all step in your development? If not, I would try that first and if that doesn't help then go to the next step like filtering fixer, developer or what not. Or possibly eliminating the stop bath and use just distilled water. Gotta start somewhere................JohnW

Click to expand...

Tried tap and distilled, see above. In my extensive digging I've come up with the possibility of something to do with the stop bath. But why would it start now? I used Ilfostop before and it didn't have this effect.

so you have thin spots on the neg. they're either underexposed spots like caused by dust settling on the film in camera. A GENTLE vacuum of the camera interior might be in order.

They could also be underdeveloped spots. If your developer is mixed correctly (I assume it is), there's a chance little air bubbles on the film during development are causing the issue. After every time you agitate, tap your developing tank on the counter top to help dislodge possible bubbles, and if you're agitating at 1 min intervals, try half as long at 30 sec intervals.

The third possibility is physical damage to the neg removing developed silver. I'm less sure what might cause that. I think I've heard of cases with too strong stop bath doing something like this, but I think it would have to be a rather strong acid, and probably with reacting with a carbonate in the dev. If you think this is possible, use plain water for stop bath. As long as you don't open the tank until the film is fully fixed, plain water is fine for film (but not for paper). You could use two water changes if you want to make extra certain no developer is sneaking into your fix, but that's probably overkill.

Expanding on mrosinlof's post above:

The "black" spots on a positive print clear on the negative. That means they are "holes" (real or simply transparent areas), undeveloped areas or emulsion damage. There are a few things that spring to mind that can cause this. You need to use the process of elimination and find out which one it is.

1. Dust on the negative at the time of exposure.
2. Defective film, resulting in tiny areas either being blocked from exposure (emulsion damage could do this) or preventing exposure (e.g., no silver halides in these spots).
3. Contamination of the negative before developing that somehow prevents the developer from working (fixer dust leaps to mind). Also, particles affixed to the negative that don't allow development to happen. Sometimes particulates in the water can cause this (minerals, etc.) but since you're using distilled check for other sources (changing bag, film storage, etc.).
4. Bubbles or particulates on the film preventing it from being developed in those spots. Do the bubble-prevention steps mentioned above, but check your developer for particulates as well.
5. Pinholes from too-active stop bath. This happens rarely anymore, especially with mainstream films with hardened emulsions, but your Fomapan may be fragile enough that a strong stop coupled with a fairly alkaline developer can cause gas bubbles that damage the emulsion. Use a half-strength stop or even a water bath to test.
6. Bleaching of the developed areas after development. This might come from particulates in your fixer or stop of fix that have been contaminated with something. Chlorine bleach or powdered residue from earlier cleanings with chlorine bleach will do this.

If you haven't already, take a sheet or snip of unexposed film, and examine it carefully under magnification for physical damage. Check all your stock chemicals for small particulates; pour a bit into a clear vessel and inspect under bright light, then filter through lab-grade filter paper and see if anything appears.

I'd also develop a snip or sheet of film that had not been loaded into the camera; just expose it very quickly to room light and then develop to see if that makes any difference. And do examine the negatives that exhibit this with magnification to see if the spots are areas of no density or if there is actual physical damage to the emulsion. If the latter, this would point to a film defect (less likely) or gas bubbles caused by developer/strong stop. If not, then look for one of the other causes.

Hope this helps,

Doremus

ALWAYS use fresh Photo-Flo.

I've had similar minute dots in the distant pass. Absolutely microscopic on the print, but there was a LOT of them and when you noticed them you couldn't not see them!

It only happened on one or two films though (developed in Ilfosol S btw) and they disappeared as quickly as they appeared with no changes in my routine.

Luckily I've not had them since, although now, since moving to a new area, I use a good filter connected to the tap to be on the safe side.

Hopefully they won't return, although I'd be interested to hear if your problem is solved and by how.

Terry S

DoryBreaux said:

Photrio,

I've been combating this problem since last fall. I posted about it back in december and got some good insight, but alas nothing has fixed this issue.
With the majority of the film/developer combos I have tried, I am getting tiny, grain sized black spots on my negatives (black once scanned, white on the physical negative). It happens most prominently with TMY and Acros, in DDX and XTOL. It did not happen when I first started developing last summer using Ilfosol-3 with Acros, Delta 100 and TMY (that had been exposed 7 years prior and stored horribly improperly). My temperature is always within .5 degrees of 20c, usually bang on. I haven't been reusing any chemicals. I use Ilfostop and Ilford rapid fixer, as well as Kodak PhotoFlo. I recently juiced a roll of Delta 100 in DDX and it came out perfectly (a bit grainy, but none of these little rouge spots).
The photo I have attached is TMY in DDX.
Also worth noting is this happnes with stand dev, Fomapan in DDX.
Edit: Am now using only distilled water bought from the store. I did not have this issue with tap water/Ilfosol3.

Any insight would be awesome! I don't mind using Delta 100 or Ilfosol3, but there are times when I want a different look than either of those give me.

Click to expand...

How old is your photoflo? You may want to try new wetting agent or (heaven forbid) process a roll without to test.

I don't understand how Photo-flo could cause black spots. Are you referring to a bottle of photo-flo that is old or a mixed solution (ready to use) that is old?

Fresh PhotoFlo, and it happens with and without it.
Two things just occurred to me that may (probably are) noteworthy;
First, I've only had this problem with one camera, Mamiya 645 Super. I havent had this issue in the 645E. Secondly, this also happened, to a lesser degree, on Portra 400 that I had developed at a lab.
This leads me to believe that there is an issue with the 645super, and that Delta is just impervious to whatever it is that the camera is causing.

I had to make an emergency trip to Seattle, but brought both cameras. I'll shoot some film while I'm here then develop it when I get home.

In this thread is much talk about pinholes (a too high concentration of stop bath) and also a possible influence of PhotoFlo (post 29, 30 ...):
Stop Bath.. How important?
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/stop-bath-how-important.98559/page-2

Again, how can PF cause pinholes? PF is simply a soap that aids in the drying of film. By the time you reach the PF stage, there should be no dev left on the film.

DoryBreaux said:

Fresh PhotoFlo, and it happens with and without it.
Two things just occurred to me that may (probably are) noteworthy;
First, I've only had this problem with one camera, Mamiya 645 Super. I havent had this issue in the 645E. Secondly, this also happened, to a lesser degree, on Portra 400 that I had developed at a lab.
This leads me to believe that there is an issue with the 645super, and that Delta is just impervious to whatever it is that the camera is causing.

I had to make an emergency trip to Seattle, but brought both cameras. I'll shoot some film while I'm here then develop it when I get home.

Click to expand...

Are you switching inserts from camera to camera, or does the Super always have the same insert in it?
I ask because the only way that a camera could contribute to this sort of problem is if there is some source of contaminant in the camera that is spreading dustlike material on to the film.
My guess is that the light seals in the film back or the shutter on the Super are deteriorating and the residue of that process is falling on to the film.
But to be absolutely sure, you should check the inserts as well.
A thorough clean and full inspection of the cameras is definitely in order.
Don't forget the dark slide seals on the Super's film back!

Especially since this is happening with multiple film types and just one camera, it is very likely dust getting on the film prior to exposure (and staying there during the exposure). As noted above, the seals could be deteriorating and contributing the dust.

MattKing said:

Are you switching inserts from camera to camera, or does the Super always have the same insert in it?
I ask because the only way that a camera could contribute to this sort of problem is if there is some source of contaminant in the camera that is spreading dustlike material on to the film.
My guess is that the light seals in the film back or the shutter on the Super are deteriorating and the residue of that process is falling on to the film.
But to be absolutely sure, you should check the inserts as well.
A thorough clean and full inspection of the cameras is definitely in order.
Don't forget the dark slide seals on the Super's film back!

Click to expand...

645E has fixed back, actually this was the reason I bought the Super even though I've only one back for that . I'll be cleaning them both tonight or tomorrow and then go put some film thru them both.

DoryBreaux said:

645E has fixed back, actually this was the reason I bought the Super even though I've only one back for that . I'll be cleaning them both tonight or tomorrow and then go put some film thru them both.

Click to expand...

Yes - but the inserts are interchangeable.
I asked about whether you were moving the inserts between the cameras, because if you were than you would need to check them as well.
Cleaning would help, but if something like the shutter curtain is deteriorating, cleaning will only be temporary.

MattKing said:

Yes - but the inserts are interchangeable.
I asked about whether you were moving the inserts between the cameras, because if you were than you would need to check them as well.
Cleaning would help, but if something like the shutter curtain is deteriorating, cleaning will only be temporary.

Click to expand...

Oh, right, my bad I had a brain fart . No I am not swapping the inserts.

Try using a water wash as a stop bath instead of Ilfostop and see if they go away. I've had this problem with cheaper films (Arista EDU for example)... I believe the stop bath was creating a fizz that popped tiny holes all over the emulsion.

Use very warm water to mix the chemicals and made sure that all the powder goes into and stays in the solution.

I do not think the PhotoFlo will help your problem.



.

I've put a roll of TMY thru both cameras. Will develop it Saturday morning once I am home and report back.
I'd forgotten how much I enjoy shooting with the 645E, despite its lack of swappable backs.

Okay, finally got it done. And now Epson Scan refuses to run.
I was able to get a few frames though, and I can not find any of these stupid little spots on the roll that came out of the 645E! I'm actually a fair bit relieved that it isn't on the chemistry side.
Thanks for all the input everybody, I really appreciate it!

DoryBreaux said:

Okay, finally got it done. And now Epson Scan refuses to run.
I was able to get a few frames though, and I can not find any of these stupid little spots on the roll that came out of the 645E! I'm actually a bit relieved.
Thanks for all the input everybody, I really appreciate it!

Click to expand...

I could be wrong, but I think that in post #12 you indicated that the problem didn't occur in film from the 645E, but did occur in film from the 645 Super.

MattKing said:

I could be wrong, but I think that in post #12 you indicated that the problem didn't occur in film from the 645E, but did occur in film from the 645 Super.

Click to expand...

I wasn't clear; I am relieved it isn't an issue on the chemistry side of things.