Time to Stock up Ilford Film (Pan-F)?

[Ian Grant]

Combining with current Fuji Neopan Acros 100, Neopan 100, 400, 1600, adding Pan-F, FP4, HP5, Delta 100, 400, 3200.

Why, the Fuji Black & White films are made by Ilford already !

 

[TPPhotog]

It's beginning to sound as if Ilford have been making the same mistake as one of our ex-major brewers over here. Producing branded items for a few pence profit in the belief that a small profit was better than a competitor getting the sale. Alas that theory is proving the downfall of many very large companies

 

[jandc]

It's beginning to sound as if Ilford have been making the same mistake as one of our ex-major brewers over here. Producing branded items for a few pence profit in the belief that a small profit was better than a competitor getting the sale. Alas that theory is proving the downfall of many very large companies

Exactly right!

 

[bwfans]

Why, the Fuji Black & White films are made by Ilford already !

Is it true the only film made by Ilford for Fuji is the C-41 processed (single) color film, like XP2 Super. But at least Fuji is working with Ilford. That is a hope.

Dream a dream. The fact is, wet films and cool darkroom are replacing by dry, boring digital bits and bytes.

 

[Flotsam]

When I walk through an art supply store. Many items, mostly the commercial and mechanical art supplies have all but disappeared from the shelves but the materials for traditional creative techniques seemed to have flourished. Art forms that have virtually no commercial aspect seem to be able to support a fairly lively industry.
Take pottery making for example. There is no utilitarian purpose for hand making vases and mugs and pots. Perfectly uniform and functional items can be bought off the shelf, made in large factories for far cheaper than you could ever even purchase the materials much less the equipment. It is purely a pursuit for the hobbiest, the craftsperson , the artist. Personally, I don't know a single person that throws their own pottery, much less has a studio set up and equipped for it. And yet if you do a quick Google search, you will find that there is a whole industry devoted to supplying equipment and materals to them. There are a number of manufacturers supplying several different styles, brands and models of pottery wheels alone, not to mention kilns, tools and sundry materials unique to that craft. One must assume that there is some profit in it.

I see the photographic industry changing to adapt to it's changing market, it has to. But as long as there are people all over the world, (the success of APUG reflects just a small example that there are), who see the unique beauty of a hand-made classic photograph and enjoy the magical relationship between art, craft and science that is traditional photography, I have a feeling that ther will be an industry around to serve us.

 

[bwfans]

The challenge is, most art supplies can be manufactured or produced by small investments, little factories. Film cannot.

How many film manufactorers in the world? One dozen, or two dozen the most?

Alternative processes and primitive photography are probably the future .

 

[mobtown_4x5]

"art supplies can be manufactured or produced by small investments, little factories. Film cannot"

Why not.? Can anyone explain to me what exactly is involved in making film?

Matt

 

[Flotsam]

I read John from J&C's posts with great interest. He has a unique perspective on the film manufacturing industry, large and small, around the world. I am glad that he interjects here from time to time.

I like Efke R50. If Ilford stops making Pan F, maybe Efke will have to start hiring to fill the low speed B&W gap... maybe even buy some new equipment and emulsions to expand their manufacturing capabilities. Probably get it cheap from Kodak or Ilford.

 

[jandc]

"art supplies can be manufactured or produced by small investments, little factories. Film cannot"

Why not.? Can anyone explain to me what exactly is involved in making film?

Matt

There is a lot involved in making film and ensuring that the emulsion has all of the properties you are looking for. In addition, there is investment in coating machines which are very large and not a dime a dozen. It also takes people who have learned the art of making film. Unfortunately, Ilford fired the brains behind their development as part of their reduction.

But there are small factories making film right now. (Fotokemika, Forte, Foma among them) These factories are tiny by comparison to Kodak, Ilford and the other big firms. I have visited them and it is amazing what they do with the little infrastructure they have. But this is what gives them the ability to make small runs of speciality films and papers but not require tens of thousands of square meters as a minimum purchase.

 

[bwfans]

Dream of future 1: B&W film will be things like Arches paper. Expensive. There will be DIY articles about hand-made films popping out all over internet websites.

Dream of future 2: With Photoshop B&W version came out, photographers will make B&W films using their new plug-ins. APX25, Super XX, just one click away .

 

[Flotsam]

Dream of future 2: With Photoshop B&W version came out, photographers will make B&W films using their new plug-ins. APX25, Super XX, just one click away .

Wake me up!!! I'm having a horrible nightmare!!!

 

[jandc]

Dream of future 1: B&W film will be things like Arches paper. Expensive. There will be DIY articles about hand-made films popping out all over internet websites.

Dream of future 2: With Photoshop B&W version came out, photographers will make B&W films using their new plug-ins. APX25, Super XX, just one click away .

Reality, the markets will contract and the small players that survive the price dumping of the big manufacturers as they eventually leave the business will be there providing great films in many flavors at no higher pricing than the prices Kodak and Ilford charge today.

 

[John McCallum]

That's a nice thought! .

 

[bwfans]

Wake me up!!! I'm having a horrible nightmare!!!

Sorry that will be exactly the result of not stocking up good Ilford film now.

You see I don't have those bad dreams because I got enough films .

 

[bwfans]

Reality, the markets will contract and the small players that survive the price dumping of the big manufacturers as they eventually leave the business will be there providing great films in many flavors at no higher pricing than the prices Kodak and Ilford charge today.

An ideal picture.

Question one, will those small companies survive the digital flood?

They are also going though digital flood and not immune of people abanding the boat. Remember the same things happen to small players: majority consumers, journalists, governments, school, hospitals, and other organization all go to digital today or tomorrow. Art photographers still consume the tiny part of their production.

Smaller film manufacturers are mostly situated in less or to-be developed area. Those countries go to digital even faster than the more developed ones. The digital advantage is so cheap to shoot (and probably not cheap to print) that majority of non-rich will go for it.

Question two, will smaller production lead to a lower price?

Even if those small ones survives, I think the trend is, films, from both big 6 and the smaller dozen, will not be cheaper. As I was told, Polaroid has cutting their production for a while to maintain a healthier profit margin. Other film manufacturers are probably doing this too or soon in respond to the less demand.

Will small players survive? Hope they can.
Will smaller production lead to a lower price? Not in common sense.

 

[modafoto]

Dream of future 2: With Photoshop B&W version came out, photographers will make B&W films using their new plug-ins. APX25, Super XX, just one click away .

Cool.

 

[Les McLean]

I had a chat with Ilford today, asked about production and was told that the plant was working as normal.

 

[jandc]

"Question one, will those small companies survive the digital flood? "

These companies have an infrastructure that is analog only. They can produce analog products in small volumes in line with the demands of the digital world. Some may fail, the free market will leave the rest to supply for the future. I can assure you that the big companies will drop film when it becomes too small a business to justify to the bean counters. This is not to say that a new Ilford downsized to fit the new reality will not be one of those players.


"Smaller film manufacturers are mostly situated in less or to-be developed area. Those countries go to digital even faster than the more developed ones. The digital advantage is so cheap to shoot (and probably not cheap to print) that majority of non-rich will go for it."


You really don't have a clue on this. Africa is one of the biggest markets for user of B&W films by consumers. Do you think people with little money can afford the cost of digital cameras, computers, printers etc etc? No, they buy a roll of B&W film for a buck, shoot it in their $5 camera and take it to the local store and get prints made for $4. If it wasn't for these countries Ilford would be in even worse shape.

"Question two, will smaller production lead to a lower price?"

No it will lead to a higher price, but the smaller companies are already cheaper than Kodak. So worst case is that the prices rise to the effective retail price of Kodak or Ilford products. This gives them plenty of margin to grow on.


"Will small players survive? Hope they can."

How do you expect this to happen when you recommend everyone hoard Ilford products and not buy anything from these smaller firms?

"Will smaller production lead to a lower price? Not in common sense."

I said no higher than what Kodak and Ilford charge, which is more than the small firms currently charge. where do you get lower price from?

 

[photomc]

I had a chat with Ilford today, asked about production and was told that the plant was working as normal.

Thanks for the update Les, this is what we should expect - production as normal. If the company had stopped production we would know that it was gone. As it is, as normal, should have hope that not only will we have fine products from Ilford for some time in the future, but that the workers that were not cut have jobs as well.

 

[FrankB]

Thanks Les! Much appreciated.

 

[bwfans]

"Will small players survive? Hope they can."

How do you expect this to happen when you recommend everyone hoard Ilford products and not buy anything from these smaller firms?

I think it is necessary to support Ilford right now. The company and films in danger today is Ilford.

If Ekfe, Tura, Foma, ..., anyone of those smaller company in danger I will support them too. But they are fine today.

I do my best to support Ilford and it also benefit myself so I don't need to worry about lacking some excellent B&W films in future.

By the way, it is great to have those small manufacturers as alternative choices. Your marketing of their films has been a great service to the community of art photographers and always get my fully support.

 

[bwfans]

See this new thread:

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

It seems Ilford monochrome materials' demise will be faster than expected.

Not any better for color materials. Kodak website just posted:

"In Response to Consumer Shift to Digital, Kodak Announces Closing of Australia Plant"(that makes Kodak color papers)

 

[bwfans]

Ilford just prove my points:

"I just read an interview with the chief of marketing and communications at Ilford France, Stéphane Douville. Hadn't seen this detailed information before somewhere, so I thought I post it here. The interview is published in the octobre 2004 issue of 'Réponses Photo', a well-known and serious French photo magazine (although too much influenced by that rather annoying digital virus, in my opinion).

Monsieur Douville says the following about the future of the different product lines at Ilford. First about film.

"According to my current information, I can inform you that the Delta line (100/400/3200) and fp4 and hp5+ [I suppose he talks about fp4+ here, pm.] will be continued except for sheetfilm. PanF+ en SFX200 will disappear without doubt. The 120 roll films will continu their career.""

If you read this thread from the beginning, my recommendation and the list of stocked film, Pan-f in 35mm and 120, FP4+ and HP5+ in 4x5, exactly match what Ilford will discontinue.

Again, this is the time to stock pan-f 35mm and 120, and all 4x5 sheet films. Could be a little early, but you will never regret.

 

[Tom Smith]

" Again, this is the time to stock pan-f 35mm and 120, and all 4x5 sheet films. Could be a little early, but you will never regret."

I wish I was one of those smug hobbyist photographers with a spare freezer and enough finances to buy out Ilford too.

Monsieur Dooville will be happy to know I'm migrating to use French Bergger paper whilst he's busy opening his mouth about Ilford during an as yet undecided future which Ilford UK faces ;P