Tilt and Shift Lens

papisa · Sep 3, 2006

How do you follow a guy having a Pancake lens.
When i bought my Canon AE-1 camera from my partnes dad it was a total Camera kit, 3 lenes ETC and he told me that he had one more lens somewhere around the house, he called me yesterday and said he found it.

He said the lens was called a Tilt and Shift lens, O.K. where do we go from here with a name like that.

Thanks for any information and have a good and safe holiday.
Mike.

Markok765 · Sep 3, 2006

shift moves the lens up to get everything in the frame without tilting the camera, tilt actually changes the focus plane so say you tilt the lens 45 deg. the focus will be on a 45 degree angle instrad of strainght

Roger Hicks · Sep 3, 2006

papisa said:
He said the lens was called a Tilt and Shift lens, O.K. where do we go from here with a name like that. Mike.

It's a way of duplicating large format camera movements. 'Tilt' means that the lens axis can be set at an angle to the subject-camera axis, allowing a receding plane to be kept in focus (Google 'Scheimpflug Rule') and 'shift' means it can be displaced parallel to the image plane, thereby (for example) avoiding the 'falling over backwards' effect that you get when you tilt a camera upwards: as long as the camera back remains parallel to the subhect, there is no 'keystone' distortion.

TS lenses (I think Canon made them in several focal lengths) are quite rare, valuable and desirable IF you need one and know how to use it. Otherwise they are bulky, slow lenses of limited interest.

Cheers,

Roger (www.rogerandfrances.com)

copake_ham · Sep 3, 2006

If I am not mistaken, and I may well be, I think a "tilt and shift" lens would be more commonly known as a "perspective contol" ("PC") lens.

Mainly used for architectural renderings - it enables one to vary the tilt (angle) between horizontal to vertical while maintaining optical perspective. This compensates for the "converging verticals" effect that otherwise result from a conical lens piece when it is shifted "off" of a direct horizontal (or vertical) plane.

BTW: if you are digitally inclined (I'm not, but aware...) - PS 9.0x has a PC function....

Roger Hicks · Sep 3, 2006

copake_ham said:
If I am not mistaken, and I may well be, I think a "tilt and shift" lens would be more commonly known as a "perspective contol" ("PC") lens.....

Dear George,

Canon's TS series also incorporate a tilt facility in addition to the normal shift of a PC, hence the TS name. The tilt facility is often more useful with close-ups than with architecture, which as you say is the principal application of a conventional shift lens.

Cheers,

Roger

copake_ham · Sep 3, 2006

Roger Hicks said:
Dear George,

Canon's TS series also incorporate a tilt facility in addition to the normal shift of a PC, hence the TS name. The tilt facility is often more useful with close-ups than with architecture, which as you say is the principal application of a conventional shift lens.

Cheers,

Roger

As you say, Roger.....

Dan Henderson · Sep 3, 2006

hmmm...and all this time I thought "PC" meant "politically correct." Although "perspective control" does have a certain metaphorical attraction....sorry, just an early morning musing.

Richard Kelham · Sep 3, 2006

If I remember correctly it came in 2 focal lengths, 35 and ?85mm. A colleague of mine had a 35 for use with his Canon F1 he photographed architects' models with it. Even then (25 years ago) it was a rare and expensive beastie cost as much as a new Sinar probably!

He also had a kind of rigid endoscope thing that he used to photograph the models from _inside_. Now that really was exotic.

Richard

Roger Hicks · Sep 3, 2006

Richard Kelham said:
If I remember correctly it came in 2 focal lengths, 35 and ?85mm.
Richard

Dear Richard,

I half had it in mind that there were three, but those two lengths do sound likelier.

Cheers,

Roger

Mackinaw · Sep 3, 2006

In the FD mount, Canon only made one TS lens, the 35mm. In the EOS mount, they made three, 24mm, 45mm and 90mm.

Jim Bielecki

Roger Hicks · Sep 3, 2006

Mackinaw said:
In the FD mount, Canon only made one TS lens, the 35mm. In the EOS mount, they made three, 24mm, 45mm and 90mm.

Jim Bielecki

Dear Jim,

Thanks for the clarification. This accounts for everyone's confusion.

Cheers,

R.

David A. Goldfarb · Sep 3, 2006

A nice find. The FD 35mm TS lens still fetches $500-700, if you decide not to keep it. As I recall there is a tripod separator for it, so if you have a little plastic block to raise the camera off the tripod, that's what it's for.

Generally, I think that most people who want to experiment with camera movements would do better with a view camera that will be more versatile and cost less than a TS lens for an SLR, but if you happen to have one of these thrown into your lap, it does let you do things like photograph architecture handheld with front rise. You can also do some view camera tricks like near/far compositions with front tilt at relatively wide apertures or use the "reverse Scheimpflug" technique to create very narrow depth of field. If you want to mimic the rear movements on a view camera, remember you can always tilt or pan the camera.

Claire Senft · Sep 3, 2006

I do not have a tilt lens. I would conjecture that a tilt/shift lens would allow some perspective,(shape changing), by allowing some angling of the plane to the suject plane, recentering and modifying the plane of focus.

Poor me, stuck with 2 pc lenses and no tilt.

naturephoto1 · Sep 3, 2006

Hi Claire,

The tilt and shift lenses would not really alter shape per say. They afford the same movement of the front standard on a View camera which will allow maintaining focus along a single plane. Do not forget that the 35mm cameras have a fixed back. With the View Camera by using tilt (and swing) on the rear standard you allow for maintaining focus along the plane, but by moving the film plane in relation to a fixed point will change the shape.

Rich

Claire Senft · Sep 3, 2006

I realize that. However it would allow the back to be set at an angle to a plane and then to have the focus corrected with the tilt.

So, how does this differ from a back swing? Of course the back could be both swung and tilted on a view camera. but it seems to me that the plane of the film being set not parallel to a subject plane would accomplish the same thing. Of course any camera allows the film plane to be offset relative to the subject plane but ordinary lenses would not allow changing the focus plane or shifting.

A 35mm camera is far from being a view camera. I do not wish to guild the dandelion here.

David A. Goldfarb · Sep 3, 2006

If you have a camera with front tilt and swing or a T/S lens, you can simulate rear movements indirectly by applying tilt or swing on the lens, tilting the camera to relevel the lens, and using rise/fall or shift to recompose.

naturephoto1 · Sep 3, 2006

David A. Goldfarb said:
If you have a camera with front tilt and swing or a T/S lens, you can simulate rear movements indirectly by applying tilt or swing on the lens, tilting the camera to relevel the lens, and using rise/fall or shift to recompose.

As David has pointed out you can use the indirect rear movement by tilting the camera and apply the direct movements to the lens (as can be done with a large format camera lacking or having insufficient movement). I do not have a tilt and shift lens and have never handled one. The only question that comes to mind is do these lenses have sufficient movement of tilt and shift to make the needed correction. I would presume that they would since less correction is required for 35mm than large format. I could talk to a friend that has the Canon Tilt and shift lenses if need be for confirmation.

Rich

Wally H · Sep 4, 2006

I used the Canon 35mm TS lense a lot in my landscape work as well as the traditional architecture applications. Primarily the 'shift' function. I felt the tilt function did not provide much, (or maybe as much as I wanted), of a focal plane shift in the way I used it. One affect that I had to beware of as compared to my LF lense during shift functions was the light fall off at the outer edges. Pretty normal, but I was used to much larger image circles in the LF lenses I used, (generally having LF lenses with image circles that allowed 100% of the mechanical shift of my view cameras).

JBrunner · Sep 4, 2006

I have used all of the canon TS lenses, and others adapted for cine applications. There is no real useful application of these lenses in substitution for a view camera, regarding architectural correction, or focus control, other than for visual effect, in other words, blurring some parts of the same focal plane. The limited movement available is very difficult to assess in a reflex viewfinder. I am always amused when comparisons to view camera systems are alluded to with these lenses. Aside from the technical similarity to some of the movements available on the front of a view camera, TS lenses have little in common with view cameras, in actual application.

That is not to say that they are not useful, or desirable, as quite striking effects can be achieved that would not otherwise be possible. In short they are a lens that is best used for visual effect, rather than technical correction of an image. The latter is possible to some degree, but is hardly precise, and very difficult to achieve.

LeonardT · Sep 19, 2006

Mackinaw said:
In the FD mount, Canon only made one TS lens, the 35mm. In the EOS mount, they made three, 24mm, 45mm and 90mm.

Jim Bielecki

Jim is right about the Canon lenses. Nikon has the PC lenses. Originally Nikon had the 35mm PC and then the 28mm PC. These lenses would only shift and not tilt. The current Nikon is the PC micro 85mm with built in CPU and also has T and S. The wide angle lenses are great for architecture and landscape photography. I find the PC 85mm is perfect for product photography of small parts where you want great depth of field and no distortion. It can't substitute for a view camera but it's a very handy substitute. I still have the Nikon 28 and 85 mm and had the Canon TS 24mm, which I liked, but sold it with all my EOS stuff which I didn't like. (Not intuitive like Nikon, Leica or Pentax).

Len

sanderx1 · Sep 20, 2006

Hartblei is apparently co-operating with Zeiss to offer Zeis 40mm, 80mm and 120mm lenses in their "super rotator" T&S mounts. So its a Distagon / Planar from Zeiss that has then been "extended" on the back end with extra mechanics so for tilt and shift and a mount for NIkon / Canon / Sony. See here - the pdf is unfortunately rabidly pro-digital.

Harrigan · Sep 20, 2006

JBrunner said:
I have used all of the canon TS lenses, and others adapted for cine applications. There is no real useful application of these lenses in substitution for a view camera, regarding architectural correction, or focus control, other than for visual effect, in other words, blurring some parts of the same focal plane. The limited movement available is very difficult to assess in a reflex viewfinder. I am always amused when comparisons to view camera systems are alluded to with these lenses. Aside from the technical similarity to some of the movements available on the front of a view camera, TS lenses have little in common with view cameras, in actual application.

This is a little different perspective but the canon diggy's and the TS lenses certainly helped in degrading and downplaying the use of 4x5 for commercial architectural photography. Architects no longer require 4x5 and in part is due to these lenses making some movements possible with 35mm and 35mm equiv diggy cameras. I say this from hard experience almost NONE of my clients want 4x5 or care about having perfect perspective in their images anymore. Thats a product of many things and another discussion. Are the TS as good as the real 4x5 deal? No way but you can get enough movement for many shots. I know many Arch/photogs using these lenses instead of 4x5 now and while its not as good as 4x5 they do help. I would still prefer to use 4x5 and these lenses are limiting but I have to change with the times or do something else for a living. My point being these TS lenses do help in doing some corrections in perspective.

haris · Sep 20, 2006

papisa said:
How do you follow a guy having a Pancake lens.
When i bought my Canon AE-1 camera from my partnes dad it was a total Camera kit, 3 lenes ETC and he told me that he had one more lens somewhere around the house, he called me yesterday and said he found it.

He said the lens was called a Tilt and Shift lens, O.K. where do we go from here with a name like that.

Thanks for any information and have a good and safe holiday.
Mike.

Wel, get that lens and you have large format camera using 35mm film...

Tilt and Shift Lens

papisa

Markok765

Roger Hicks

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Dan Henderson

Richard Kelham

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Claire Senft

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Tilt and Shift Lens

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