Thoughts on Nudes and Photography

Dear Mr Leake, I find your 'art' very bland, basic, and boring actually, not much thought going on with regard to lighting, composition, posing or anything else like a message or statement in my opinion. Using a 10x8 and doing platinum prints of this stuff is beyond me....and to feel the need to justify your tepid work with this piece of writing is,to me, arrogant and laughable. Sorry but thats my opinion and Im sure many will disagree. I just thought the 'emperor has no clothes' situation was evident....No harm meant. best wishes.

RichardWright said:

Dear Mr Leake, I find your 'art' very bland, basic, and boring actually, not much thought going on with regard to lighting, composition, posing or anything else like a message or statement in my opinion. Using a 10x8 and doing platinum prints of this stuff is beyond me....and to feel the need to justify your tepid work with this piece of writing is,to me, arrogant and laughable. Sorry but thats my opinion and Im sure many will disagree. I just thought the 'emperor has no clothes' situation was evident....No harm meant. best wishes.

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No harm may have been meant, but the tone of your post is unnecessarily rude and personal. It is possible to critique someone's work and writing without personal insults. A constructive critique will give all who read it, some thing to think about. Your critique, however, does not.

I'm reluctant to delete it since you are new here, but I hope in future, you'll choose to be more constructive and collegial when you post to APUG.

SuzanneR said:

No harm may have been meant, but the tone of your post is unnecessarily rude and personal. It is possible to critique someone's work and writing without personal insults. A constructive critique will give all who read it, some thing to think about. Your critique, however, does not.

I'm reluctant to delete it since you are new here, but I hope in future, you'll choose to be more constructive and collegial when you post to APUG.

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Amen, Suzanne. Let's keep APUG civil.

RichardWright said:

No harm meant. best wishes.

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??

Give us a break. Of course you meant harm.

This is the reason I was reluctant to join this forum. I meant no harm, as I stated, though my way of expressing my sentiment could, on reflection, have been tempered and Id be grateful to you, Mr Johnny Walker, to not tell me what I meant or didnt mean to do. My comments were meant as constructive critisism, your comment, Mr Johnny Walker, was pointless. Since making my comment I was thinking of deleting it, but as a new member I dont know how to...!? And within the few hours that I wrote it I have been contacted privately by Mr Leake in a polite gracious manner asking me to elaborate on , not delete, my opinion....and only he, and perhaps the moderator, are the people whom I believe should be involved in my comments...unless of course instead of writing your pointless comment, you actually defend Mr Leake's images in a serious fashion, as I have critisised them privately to Mr Leake. Though Im guessing you will just tell me what Im thinking again...Look at the work, and defend it, praise it, or critisize it, but dont judge me for daring to do so...! If Suzanne (the moderator), or Mr Leake (whom Ive asked already but havent heard back from yet) wish to delete my comments then thats fine. If Mr Johnny Walker wishes to use his time to post again I truly hope he will use it to express an opinion on the work, as I did, instead of just trying, and failing, to read my mind. I stand by my comments and am happy to use my full name on my posts, are you Mr Walker...?Best wishes to all (or do I mean something else by that Mr Walker...!?)

Mr. Wright, it would be helpful for understanding a critique, especially one so strongly expressed as yours, to know the critic's background. Care to add a web-site link to your profile?

doughowk said:

Mr. Wright, it would be helpful for understanding a critique, especially one so strongly expressed as yours, to know the critic's background. Care to add a web-site link to your profile?

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I dont understand the apparent vitriol of RichardWright's first [critique]. I too would like to view his work and do a side by side comparrison, to try and understand where his opinion comes from, though,personally I dont care to look at nude work(except for the old masters).

Rick

Im 42 years old, Ive been involved in photography since I was 13....Ive worked in the fields of advertising, fashion,beauty, and portraiture, using 35mm up to and including 10x8. Im now concentrating on my own private work. I dont profess to know everything about photography as its an infinite curve on which I continue to climb, which is one of its many attractions, and frustrations!? Im not really interested in posting any of my images here, and to be honest showing my work would have no relevance whatsoever in relation to Mr Leake's images. I know the strengths and weaknesses of all of my images, both the many failures, and the few successes, and so I dont need the comments of others here, which may in reality be influenced by my comments about Mr Leakes work. I am my own harshest critic, and my own best teacher...However since Mr Leake has chosen to post his images, and his thoughts on art, here, he is clearly open to comments about his work, which he has confirmed with a private message to me. I made my comments, which I stand by, in a rather coarse manner, which I regret and here apologise for...so far I havent heard anyone defend Mr Leake's images as 'art' or great photography...My eyes and ears are open and ready to be engaged in that topic...Best wishes.

There's a RW wedding photographer in the UK, but I don't suppose that it would be you?
There was a recent article here on critiques, and my point in a comment was that one should know who is critiquing in order to better take advantage of the critique. Otherwise, its just another anonymous opinion of minimal value.

Dear Mr Rainphot, as a further reply to your comment, I dont see any 'vitriol' in my initial comments. They were perhaps alittle coarse, as Ive admitted,and apologised for, but vitriolic...no. As an admirer, and occasional user of large format equipment, mainly 5x4 (or 4x5 if you are an American...) I know the potential difficulties, and great rewards, involved in using that process, and I have great respect for the people who use that cumbersome, slow choice of equipment in the manner in which it CAN be used to sublime effect. I also have great respect for the tonal qualities available from platinum prints, and I admire the determination and will power of those who have taken the time to study, learn, master and print using that medium.
My initial comments about Mr Leake's work were based on my thoughts that the images he has created do neither justice to the format used nor the medium he is printing on. Sadly there are many who forget that technique and process are solely a means to an end, and not an end in themselves. I realise that if you wish to do platinum prints then you were obliged, in the past at least, to use a large format camera to gain the correct sized negative for your image. All of this technique, equipment, labour and effort I admire, if the images live up to that effort. Personally I dont think Mr Leake's images do justice to that effort, and perhaps looking beyond technique and equipment to composition, skilled use of light and shadow, perpective, pose etc etc would, in my personal opinion, make his images worthy of the equipment, effort and printing method used. My use of the words 'arrogant' and 'laughable' were, in hindsight inappropriate, and again (and for the last time) I apologise for their use. However, having read Mr Leake's lengthy and authoritative dissertation on the history of the nude in art I was hoping for, and expecting, some amazing, eye-opening images by him...I was sadly disappointed, hence my regrettable post. I am still eager to hear from those of you who wish to defend his work....though I mean no harm in this apparent attack on Mr Leake and his work. I have been honest and open with my thoughts, maybe too honest. Finally,Mr Rainphot, why would I consider posting you any of my nudes when you yourself state that you have no interest in that genre...!? I truly wonder if you have more interest in antagonism than photography as I see no other reason for you joining in on this topic...? I shall leave it there, and will not be playing this game any longer, Ive got stuff to do. Best wishes to all, and especially to Mr Leake who graciously asked for me to elaborate on my initial comments to him in private, a firm indication of his humility and a firm lesson for me in mistakingly calling him arrogant...

Ha ha, no I dont advertise my services DougHowk, though Im honoured that you feel the need to try and track me down instead of reading again what I initially said then looking at Mr Leakes images, and then perhaps making your own comments about those images, go on, I dare you! And everyone is entitled to their opinion, as Mr Leake so graciously said to me...I dont need to justify my opinions by showing you how big my camera is...nor my images. That, as you should know, is totally irrelevant, and childish. My opinions stand on their own in relation to the work discussed, nothing else is being discussed here, in fact Im the only one discussing Mr Leake's work! Are you going to put your hat in the ring, sir, or am I going to be vilified for having an opinion!?

Let's start fresh, then.

Mr. Wright has apologized for the rather course manner in which he offered his critique. FWIW, he made some valid points about Ian's work, which I may not agree with, but I felt deleting the post was not necessary. We are, I think, interested in dialog that is constructive. I don't have to agree with all comments here, whether they are critical or not, and I think APUG would be boring if all that was offered in the form of critique was praise.

Ian's nudes are most interesting to me, when he uses the negative space around the figure well. Not all of them work for me, but some are really quite beautiful to my eye. I have one of Ian's platinum prints, and it's gorgeous... I imagine the prints of his nudes are rather more impressive in person than they are on the screen, so I'm reluctant to comment on his print quality here. That said, I don't find figure work as interesting as other forms of photography... I have a personal preference for more documentary work, but studying those who work in the studio in still life or with the figure can lead one to a greater understanding for organizing space within the framework of the camera.

Oops... didn't hear all the typing!!

Ps...I understand your desperate need to classify and categorise me and my worthiness to have an opinion by showing you a photograph or two...I went to college a long time ago to do a photography course. Every day for two years I asked to see the work of the teachers who were critisizing my efforts daily, so that I could judge their worthiness to teach me...and everyday they chose to forget to bring anything in to show me. After winning a number of external photography competitions I learned to stop asking to see their images, as it was irrelevant to my own progress, instead I continued to ask their advise and learn from them things that they clearly knew more about than I did, choosing also to find out for myself things that they had no interest nor knowledge of...I learned a great deal when I was eventually open to learning, and they, after years of blinkered teaching and drowning in bureaucracy, learned a few things too...

Silence is golden...!?

RichardWright said:

Dear Mr Rainphot, as a further reply to your comment, I dont see any 'vitriol' in my initial comments. They were perhaps alittle coarse, as Ive admitted,and apologised for, but vitriolic...no. As an admirer, and occasional user of large format equipment, mainly 5x4 (or 4x5 if you are an American...) I know the potential difficulties, and great rewards, involved in using that process, and I have great respect for the people who use that cumbersome, slow choice of equipment in the manner in which it CAN be used to sublime effect. I also have great respect for the tonal qualities available from platinum prints, and I admire the determination and will power of those who have taken the time to study, learn, master and print using that medium.
My initial comments about Mr Leake's work were based on my thoughts that the images he has created do neither justice to the format used nor the medium he is printing on. Sadly there are many who forget that technique and process are solely a means to an end, and not an end in themselves. I realise that if you wish to do platinum prints then you were obliged, in the past at least, to use a large format camera to gain the correct sized negative for your image. All of this technique, equipment, labour and effort I admire, if the images live up to that effort. Personally I dont think Mr Leake's images do justice to that effort, and perhaps looking beyond technique and equipment to composition, skilled use of light and shadow, perpective, pose etc etc would, in my personal opinion, make his images worthy of the equipment, effort and printing method used. My use of the words 'arrogant' and 'laughable' were, in hindsight inappropriate, and again (and for the last time) I apologise for their use. However, having read Mr Leake's lengthy and authoritative dissertation on the history of the nude in art I was hoping for, and expecting, some amazing, eye-opening images by him...I was sadly disappointed, hence my regrettable post. I am still eager to hear from those of you who wish to defend his work....though I mean no harm in this apparent attack on Mr Leake and his work. I have been honest and open with my thoughts, maybe too honest. Finally,Mr Rainphot, why would I consider posting you any of my nudes when you yourself state that you have no interest in that genre...!? I truly wonder if you have more interest in antagonism than photography as I see no other reason for you joining in on this topic...? I shall leave it there, and will not be playing this game any longer, Ive got stuff to do. Best wishes to all, and especially to Mr Leake who graciously asked for me to elaborate on my initial comments to him in private, a firm indication of his humility and a firm lesson for me in mistakingly calling him arrogant...

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Thank you for the personal response. As for my "not careing" to view nudes stems from my belief that there are no more new ways to pose a body that is "artful". Nearly every pose that I have viewed recently looks painful and awkward, for both the model and viewer. Years ago, I spent many hours shooting "the genre", and feel, for me, its become hackneyed. There are many of you out there that feel otherwise, and that is fine for you.

My statement about your apparent vitriol is just an observation brought on by your dialog. I am, by nature, not an antagonistic person. However after reading your rant, I felt it necesary to question your motives. I do believe that when we view anothers work, find positive ways of responding, or be polite and just say it doesn't work for you. Is there any real need to disparage another?

Once again, I thank you for believing me worthy of a personal response.

Rick

Richard. As you have asked me to comment publicly I will.

1) My Prints. I know that what I do isn't to everyone's taste. That's fine. I also recognise that by choosing to post them here I am inviting other people to comment on them. That's fine too. And the same goes for my writing. Having said that, I would prefer people to be polite even if they do not like what I do. I accept your apology.

2) Your Credentials. In my experience, the value of someone's feedback is often (albeit not always) closely related to their experience of the subject being discussed. For example, Kim Weston's opinions and experience of photography, nudes and printing are on balance more likely to be valuable than those of Joe Schmo the wedding photographer. As you refuse to credentialise yourself people are entitled to assume that you are closer to Joe Schmo than to Kim Weston - and they're entitled to value your opinions accordingly.

3) Critique. I have managed, trained and coached people for many years in my corporate career. Believe me when I say that it is possible to be very tough and challenging to people while remaining polite, supportive and constructive. I suggest that you read Cheryl's article on critique ((there was a url link here which no longer exists)) and start again.

I don't particularly want to get drawn into a public shouting match because these are generally pointless and demeaning to all involved. So if it's OK with you I shall return to doing the more valuable things in my life.

Ian.

P.S. "Mr Leake" was my father. My name is Ian.

Hi Ian

Final comment on this from me then....Firstly, is 'credentialise' a real word?? Thats a new one on me...its true that in general the value of someone's feedback is closely related to their experiences of the subject being discussed. Lets say for the sake of argument that Ive never touched a camera, but that Ive studied the history of art, and specifically the use of the nude worldwide in photography, since its invention, up to and including the present day....would my opinion be less valid having never taken a photograph? You seem to imply that it would be less valid. How close would this imaginary person have to get to a large format camera, or for that matter to a naked woman, to understand your obviously deep and meaningful work? I have a friend who always says she doesnt know anything about photography so she feels her opinion on an image we may be discussing is invalid, I refuse to agree with her, and invite her comments, as perhaps someone who has fresher eyes sees things in a different way, and I value her comments, as I do my friends 13 year old daughter, who may like or dislike a colour or the specific placement of an object within the frame. She may not fully understand, nor have been taught, why she likes or dislikes something, or the rule of thirds etc, but inherently she may have the artistic temperament to see and analyse in a thoughtful way, and make a valid statement that may only need translating into adult 'artspeak' for it to be valued by those with minds and ears too closed to hear the comments of a naive child.
This theoritical situation is purely that. I have actually taken a number of photographs in my time, and studied the history of art etc etc but I dont need to walk around with my images or reference books glued to my back and front to justify my comments here or in an exhibition somewhere. Most intelligent mature people will listen to the comments of others and choose to dismiss or agree with them as they see fit, they may even admit that they, as we all do, have more to learn on the subject than perhaps they care to openly admit....Telling you how expensive my lenses are, or showing you my images has absolutely no relevance whatsoever on my thoughts on your images. If you put any piece of artwork on a wall it is up for discussion, by everyone who can see it, and the classism you imply in your comments is sadly what the art scene is all too full of, an elitism that tries to restrict the discussion of art from the masses, who then feel isolated and not allowed to enjoy that which they feel excluded from. If an image needs a lengthy written piece of artspeak jargon next to or underneath it to justify it, then it has failed entirely in its premise. If a young person casually walks up to it and it makes him or her smile, or frown, or question, or hopefully think, or even greater inspire then it has succeeded! Sadly, as I have said privately to you before, none of your images ellicit those emotions in me, and that dear sir is my priviledge....Good luck and best wishes. Richard

My patience is running thin... you've made your point in numerous posts, Ian is free to accept or reject it, as are the rest of us. Lighten up.

I find it strange and even suspicious the nude photography continuously needs justification.

Dear Rainphot, since Im still here Ill quickly reply to your most recent comment: "I do believe that when we view anothers work, find positive ways of responding, or be polite and just say it doesn't work for you. Is there any real need to disparage another?" I have already discussed the incorrect manner in which I initially wrote about Mr Leake's work, I have also discussed that the manner may have been alittle agressive, but the sentiment remains. If I were to ask someones opinion of one of my images, after countless hours of my deciding whether to rip it up or tone and frame it, I would be more insulted by a coy "it doesnt work for me..." none-answer than an honest open critique/attack of the work in question. Having studied the work myself before anyone else I would be able to defend its merits, and open to admit its faults, objectively. Despite the stiff upper lipped caracature that the British may have invited upon themselves, my friends and I realise, understand, and are very grateful for our openness with each other with respect to our creative work. We appreciate these discussions, learning and growing from them, something impossible to do with a nonchalant "it doesnt work for me..." aside. How doesnt it work for you? Why? Questions, answers, opinions, debate...one will never grow without teachers, be they an open young child unafraid to say what he thinks, or a wise old master, whose valid comments, though harsh, may be just what the student needs to develop and grow...and yes, we are all eternal students. Bye for now! R.

RichardWright said:

Dear Rainphot, since Im still here Ill quickly reply to your most recent comment: "I do believe that when we view anothers work, find positive ways of responding, or be polite and just say it doesn't work for you. Is there any real need to disparage another?" I have already discussed the incorrect manner in which I initially wrote about Mr Leake's work, I have also discussed that the manner may have been alittle agressive, but the sentiment remains. If I were to ask someones opinion of one of my images, after countless hours of my deciding whether to rip it up or tone and frame it, I would be more insulted by a coy "it doesnt work for me..." none-answer than an honest open critique/attack of the work in question. Having studied the work myself before anyone else I would be able to defend its merits, and open to admit its faults, objectively. Despite the stiff upper lipped caracature that the British may have invited upon themselves, my friends and I realise, understand, and are very grateful for our openness with each other with respect to our creative work. We appreciate these discussions, learning and growing from them, something impossible to do with a nonchalant "it doesnt work for me..." aside. How doesnt it work for you? Why? Questions, answers, opinions, debate...one will never grow without teachers, be they an open young child unafraid to say what he thinks, or a wise old master, whose valid comments, though harsh, may be just what the student needs to develop and grow...and yes, we are all eternal students. Bye for now! R.

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Huh?

Throw the bum out.

Richard,

For a critique to have value it needs to reveal something new to the person receiving it. An experienced photographer, an artist in another field, an art historian, an ordinary person, or an innocent child could all reveal something new. But in all likelihood, the knowledgeable person is more likely to reveal something new because they have a greater breadth of experience to draw on.

You have chosen to critique my work on two grounds. Your first critique was an emotional statement that my pictures do nothing for you. Fine. I accept that. I've had worse comments from people (such as when a porn aggregator linked to my web site and I had 12,000 visitors in one weekend - not surprisingly they were mostly disappointed with the pictures I show - and some of them couldn't handle that disappointment very well).

But your second critique was about technique and process - you've talked about camera kit, lighting, backdrops, platinum printing, posing, composition, etc. I'm sorry, but if you're going to set yourself up as someone I should listen to about these things then you have to demonstrate you know something about the subject. If you cannot or will not do this then you are no better than those college lecturers you derided in one of your posts.

The internet is full of armchair critics who use critiques as a way to puff up their egos and tell everyone how fantastic and important they are. I am coming to the conclusion that you are one of these people.

It's time to put up or shut up, Richard.

Rolleiflexible said:

Throw the bum out.

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Who, me? That's jolly harsh Sanders