Thio toning problem/question

markbau · Apr 5, 2016

I haven't used this for many years and have just mixed up a warm bleach in Epraums book and his Toner formula. I'm printing on Ilford warm tone FB first toned in 1:40 selenium. My problem is that after a 30 second bleach I wash the print and then put it into the Thio toner, no matter how long I leave it in the Thio I am not getting the highlights back, it now looks like the print is massively underexposed. Should I dilute the bleach more? Any suggestions?

Thanks

Mark

RobC · Apr 5, 2016

have you exposed the print to plenty of room light after bleaching?

markbau · Apr 5, 2016

RobC said:
have you exposed the print to plenty of room light after bleaching?

I've left the first one out in daylight for about half an hour and so far no change :-(

RobC · Apr 5, 2016

did that paper exist when he wrote his book and was the selenium tone prior to bleach and thio tone what he suggests?

RobC · Apr 5, 2016

markbau said:
I've left the first one out in daylight for about half an hour and so far no change :-(

I meant to say after bleaching but before thio toning. A few seconds under normal room lighting should be plenty. It may not be necessary but I just thought that if you were working in darkroom under safelights then paper wouldn't be re-exposed and might benefit from it.

Marco Buonocore · Apr 5, 2016

In my experience, fresh Ilford Warmtone paper always redevelops fully in sepia toner of any sort. I mean maybe the slightest bit of the highest highlights get lost, but not much more than that. For whatever reasons, I have had experience with very old paper not redeveloping completely - but never with fresh Ilford paper.

What is the formula for the toner you're using? I don't know the Ephraums book.

For the record, I selenium tone my Warmtone prints first, and then follow it up with sepia. I don't think that would have any effect on the highlights redeveloping.

brian steinberger · Apr 6, 2016

Hi, did you remember to add "accelorator" (sodium hydroxide) to your sepia toner? If it was just pure thio that could be your problem. Or you selenium toned too long before bleaching.

RobC · Apr 6, 2016

I think the the time you leave the print in bleach is factor too. It can be over done. And washing it very thoroughly between bleaching and thio tone.
you can only re-try. Shorten bleaching time considerably and use extended wash after bleach and then tone.

Rudeofus · Apr 7, 2016

Mark, can you confirm that the bleach you mixed is a rehalogenating bleach? Also, to follow up on Brian Steinberger's suggestion: can you tell us whether the toned mid level grays in your final print are neutral in color?

Ian Grant · Apr 7, 2016

Selenium Toner contains thiosulphate so you need a very good wash and I'd use wash aid as well before you use a re-halogenating bleach with Fibre based paper. Sounds like there's enough thiosulphate left to strip away the highlights

You also need a slightly heavier than normal print as Thiourea toners won't give the same densities as in the original. It's best to do some tests.

Ian

Rich Ullsmith · Apr 10, 2016

The chemistry has to be wrong on one end or the other. Either no halogen or no NaOH. Or insufficient amounts. I have Ephrams book. What "warm" bleach are you using?

markbau · Apr 10, 2016

Thanks to all that have replied.

The bleach I used was 750ml water-6.6g Sodium Chloride-35g Pottasium Ferricyanide-WTM 1000ml.

The toner I used was Solution A 750ml water, 100g Thio, WTM 1000ml. Solution B was Water, 100g Sodium Hydroxide, WTM 1000ml
I mixed 50ml of Sol A to 10ml Sol B which is for a yellow/brown toner.

The book mentioned some things to try if full density did not return which I tried without success, immersing print in a bath of very hot water and re-fixing the print.

The selenium toner I used was stronger than I usually use 1:25 dilution as opposed to my normal 1:45 dilution.

All tones, including mid tones took on the yellow/brown colour.

Ian Grant · Apr 11, 2016

I think your bleach is lacking in halides, you need to have a much higher level of Sodium Chloride or Potassium (or Sodium) Bromide. Ilford's bleach uses 25g Ferricyanide and 25 g Bromide. It's important that the halide level is in excess of the Ferricyanide in the toner or you risk bleaching without fully re-halogenating.

You're obviously aware that using a bleach with Sodium Chloride will give warmer (more yellow brown) and less dense tones compared to Potassium Bromide.

Ian

Rudeofus · Apr 11, 2016

Ian, adding more Chloride may not work as expected, as higher concentrations of Chloride will also act as silver solvent (c.f. Microdol).

@mark: what you describe looks like a standard run off the mill thiourea toner, except for the Sodium Chloride in your bleach. Try to replace the Sodium Chloride with 5-10 g/l Potassium Bromide next time. You can "repair" the bleach you already mixed by just adding the Bromide, the Chloride already in there won't hurt.

Ian Grant · Apr 11, 2016

Rudeofus said:
Ian, adding more Chloride may not work as expected, as higher concentrations of Chloride will also act as silver solvent (c.f. Microdol).

It works fine, it's one of the bleaches I used very regularly and remember we actually want to dissolve the silver by converting it to the insoluble halide in this case so the solvent action is needed

Ian

Rudeofus · Apr 11, 2016

Ian Grant said:
It works fine, it's one of the bleaches I used very regularly and remember we actually want to dissolve the silver by converting it to the insoluble halide in this case so the solvent action is needed

Some will stay in solution, leading to some reduction in density as observed by Mark.

Ian Grant · Apr 11, 2016

Rudeofus said:
Some will stay in solution, leading to some reduction in density as observed by Mark.

In my experience it doesn't Mark, Silver Chloride is insoluble and the bleach doesn't go cloudy with use. It's not remotely similar to the effects of a developer like Microdol (X) or Perceptol where you have a 10% solution of Sodium Sulphite present alongside the Chloride and the Sulphite at that level is itself a mild silver solvent.

Ian

MarkL · Apr 11, 2016

You could try a test without the selenium step. Also, have you tried the thio first and then the selenium?

Rudeofus · Apr 12, 2016

The selenium step should rather help densities than hurt them, therefore I'm not sure whether skipping selenium toning would help with the original issue at hand. The sequence selenium ---> thio is quite popular, since it can give black blacks, brown mid tones and yellow/white highlights. I'm not sure whether reversing these steps would yield the same results.

RauschenOderKorn · Apr 14, 2016

How did you fix and wash the print before toning?

If remaining fixer or degradation products from the fixer still contaminate the paperbase and come in contact with the bleach (as a ferry-based bleach is used), Farmer´s reducer is formed permanently lightening your print.

The general recommendation for fixing prior to toning is to:

1.) Use fresh fixer, in general one shot chemistry or 2-bath fixing is recommended
2.) Do NOT overfix
3.) Thoroughly wash your prints prior to bleaching, as required in accordance with the base you use. As far as I know FB papers need to wash around 30 min in fresh water before bleaching

Rudeofus · Apr 14, 2016

RauschenOrderKorn raised an interesting point: did Mark wash properly between selenium toner and bleaching for thio toning? We know that selenium toner is loaded with Thiosulfate, which will, if not washed properly, form Farmer's reducer together with the rehal bleach for thio toner.

markbau · Apr 14, 2016

Did a thorough test today with Ilford FB warm tone and Ilford FB classic. I changed the bleach to a standard bleach: 750ml water-100g Pot ferri-100g Pot Bromide-WTM 1000ml, this was diluted 1:20. No matter what I tried the warm tone paper would not get the highlights back. The classic was a very different story. The best result was selenium (1:45), very complete rinse/wash then 60 seconds in the bleach and then into the thio. The result was superb. The dark tones stayed dark but with a nice DMax increase, the mid to light tones took on a lovely subtle yellow. For my work I will be ditching Ilford warm tone and only using Ilford classic. Mind you, I love Ilford warm tone when selenium toned (1:45) but it just doesn't seem to work with bleach and redevelop. Would love to hear of anyone having success with warm tone doing bleach and redevelop.

RauschenOderKorn · Apr 14, 2016

I just looked up the datasheet from Ilford (2002 Edition in German): For the FB warm tone paper Ilford recommended a slight overexposure @ reduced contrast prior to sepia toning and indicate that for thio toner an increased amount of hydroxide is required. Furthermore, they recommend an OVERDEVELOPMENT of about 50% and warn explicitly that thio toners might bleach the print.

As it seems, this paper is a little diva with regards to thio tones.

RauschenOderKorn · Apr 14, 2016

Rudeofus said:
... We know that selenium toner is loaded with Thiosulfate, ...

Actually there are formulas without Thiosulfate, both home-brew and commercially available. But some selenium toners are loaded.

markbau · Apr 14, 2016

Thank you so much for relating the Ilford data sheet on warmtone, very interesting and it certainly lines up with my experience. I really do like warmtone in 1:45 selenium but will stay away from it with Thio toners. One more question, is there any way to get the this a bit more yellow? Upon dry down the colour was very light tan and not as yellowish as I was hoping for. Has anyone Thio toned with Oriental seagull cool tone?

RauschenOderKorn said:
I just looked up the datasheet from Ilford (2002 Edition in German): For the FB warm tone paper Ilford recommended a slight overexposure @ reduced contrast prior to sepia toning and indicate that for thio toner an increased amount of hydroxide is required. Furthermore, they recommend an OVERDEVELOPMENT of about 50% and warn explicitly that thio toners might bleach the print.

As it seems, this paper is a little diva with regards to thio tones.

Thio toning problem/question

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