thinking about medium format...

BimmerJake · Jul 5, 2009

hey guys,

i'm seriously considering moving up to medium format in the next couple of months. I'm a total medium noob and don't really know where to start, i just know i love the capability of the larger film format. i see mamiya's on ebay pretty cheap (like rb67 pro s).

i really enjoy shooting b&w landscapes and still life.

also, if i can't develop the film myself is it even worth it?

Thanks for your insight

TheAZGolfBum · Jul 5, 2009

When you go to medium format, I've got some RB Pro S equipment you might be interested in.

David

Jeff Kubach · Jul 5, 2009

I love my RB67 even tough it's big. Beside David you can check out KEH also.

Jeff

aldevo · Jul 5, 2009

BimmerJake said:
hey guys,

i'm seriously considering moving up to medium format in the next couple of months. I'm a total medium noob and don't really know where to start, i just know i love the capability of the larger film format. i see mamiya's on ebay pretty cheap (like rb67 pro s).

i really enjoy shooting b&w landscapes and still life.

also, if i can't develop the film myself is it even worth it?

Thanks for your insight

Jim,

It sounds like you'll do most of your shooting on a tripod where the RB67's weight isn't a factor (except to say that you must drag the kit and the tripod into the field for landscapes). If that's true, then the RB67 is probably a pretty good match with its 6x7 format, rotating film back, etc. In fact, I think there's a 6x8 back that might be available for the RB67 family, too.

You should take the time to learn a little bit about the different families of lenses available for the RB67. Some lenses are labeled "KL-L", some are labeled "C", and some contain no alphabetical labeling at all. The first of these (KL-L) are the newest lenses and incorporate the same design as labels available for the newer RZ cameras. The second group ("C") are older, but still multi-coated. The last of these (unlabeled) are the first generation of lenses for the RB which, I'm 99% sure, are only single-coated.

Basically, go for the KL-L lenses if you can, or at the very least go for the "C" lenses. Mamiya's quality control in the days of the unlabeled lenses was not stellar and, in addiition, to being older designs, sample to sample quality variation amongst the older lenses is reputed to be "extreme".

Also keep in mind that if you aren't familiar with these sorts of cameras and aren't sure MF is for you, going through KEH.com might be a lot safer than eBay.

Personally, I started in MF with a Yashica Mat 124G 6x6 TLR and just bought a Bronica SQ-AI outfit from KEH last week. I would have preferred a 6x7 camera but I wanted something hand-holdable, too.

I'm pretty new to MF, myself, but choosing an MF camera seems to be a not-always-artful compromise. You start out factoring in what you really want but, ultimately, your decision seems to be made on the basis of what you can afford to put up with...

As to whether or not it's worth it if you aren't developing your own film - I'm tempted to ask why it is that you do not develop your own B&W film? It isn't too difficult or messy and there's a lot of resources here to help get you started doing it.

Venchka · Jul 5, 2009

Aldevo is correct. B&W film developing is too easy, too cheap and too much fun to not do it yourself. Enlarging is another story in terms of space and hardware. doable in a small space, but it takes some careful thought and the right space. A friend uses a small bathroom for prints up to 8x10.

C-41 film, color & B&W, is another story. Are you in the USA? If so, you can drop off 120 AND 220 C-41 film at Walmart. They send it to Fuji. 2 weeks later the negatives return, properly sleeved and cut. The cost? A whopping $0.88/roll. I verified this last week with a 220 roll of 6x7 negatives. All perfect.

Add a scanner and inkjet printer and you're in business.

RB/RZ-67 versus a lot of medium format alternatives: Decide if you want/need/like hand holding the camera. The 6x7 Mamiya can be used without a tripod but there are better cameras for hand holding. They all work fine on a tripod. Also decide if you need 6x7. 6x4.5 and 6x6 cameras are generally smaller, lighter, etc.

Good luck.

paul ron · Jul 5, 2009

Medium format is great. If you are coming from 35mm, you'll be blowen away by the negs. you thought you had details till you see what this can do.

If you are hand holding, consider a 645 system. Bronica ETRS is a great camera and they can be found fairly cheap. The assortment of lenses n backs will make it a very useful camera for a long long time.

The RBs are wonderful but they are on the heavy side. It's a pro camera and feels like it in the hand. You'll need to get use to using this camera as it has a few features not found in most other cameras like the revolving back, double cocking, bellows focusing. They have a huge amount of lenses n backs available at very reasonable prices.

Either way, you'll enjoy the hell out of MF.

I have a few RBs n ETRS that I was going to list in the classifieds if you are interested?

Paul Ron, NYC
automax1@juno.com

Mark Fisher · Jul 5, 2009

The RB is so ridiculously cheap now, that you might as well give it a try if your are interested. If it doesn't work out, you can always resell it. If you expect to haul it around much, you might want to consider adding up the weights of the camera and lenses you intend to haul around, though. When I did that, I found that all the other candidates were within a few pounds of each other except the RB/RZ. I ended up with a 6x6 instead (Rolleicord and Mamiya C220 then Hasselblad later).

One more plug for developing your own....as long as you have access to dark (a closet will do), it is pretty easy to learn. You might also consider joining a class at a community college or community arts center. You'll get access to a darkroom, equipment, chemicals, and, most importantly, expertise. In the long term, this will make a bigger impact on your prints than a larger format....plus it is incredibly fun!

Sirius Glass · Jul 5, 2009

Since you are just starting keep you investment/expenses down. While I much prefer a single lens reflex [SLR] over a twin lens reflex [TLR], I would recommend you find a TLR such as a Yashica or Mamiya as the first camera. The advantage of the SLR and TLR over a rangefinder [RF] is that you will have a large image on groundglass to work with. The groundglass makes composing and focusing much easier and allows you to study the image to see if there are any special details that you either want or do not want in the photograph.

Remember you can always spend more for camera equipment later. Later if you spend a lot of money frequently then you will get GAS [Gadget Acquisition Syndrome]. You have been warned.

For very little money, you can buy a film changing bag, a developing tank, film reels and the chemical to process black & white film. Then you can scan the film on a flatbed scanner. I picked up a refubished Epson 4490 Photo scan through the Epson website for $100 including shipping, the negative and slide holders, and the software.

Please feel free to ask questions. There are no stupid questions; we were all there once. Welcome to APUG.

Steve

PhotoJim · Jul 5, 2009

I went through this about a year and a half ago. I already had a Minolta Autocord TLR so I knew I wanted a 120 system.

I did a bunch of research and settled on the Bronica SQ system (6x6) for a few reasons:
- it was probably the second-most popular rollfilm system for pros behind the Hasselblad, but the prices are a lot lower than for Hasselblad gear even though the lens quality is similar
- myriad backs available; 6x6 (120 and 220), 6x4.5, 35mm and 35mm panoramic
- interchangeable backs are convenient if you want to shoot multiple films simultaneously - you can swap them out mid-roll
- many choices of viewfinders - waist-level and various prisms (some including aperture priority automatic exposure)
- availability of a motor-driven body (although I don't really find this to be that important anymore; if I want motor-driven photography I tend to pull out one of my Nikons)

I have no regrets at all about the decision. I need to add a couple of things (I want a waist-level finder for some work, and a metering AE prism for shooting convenience; my current finder is a non-metering prism), but I can chip away at this list as finances allow.

Definitely have a look at the Bronicas. There are three systems, ETSR (6x4.5), SQ (6x6 natively but with backs for smaller formats), and GS (6x7).

Leighgion · Jul 5, 2009

While I'm personally dubious about the "fun" aspects of home development once the novelty wears off, I absolutely agree B&W home development is too cheap and easy not to do if you're seriously into film. That said, if you've chemistry phobia, I would say medium format is still worthwhile long as you can afford to pay pro labs fees for your film. I have no space for a darkroom, but I do all my own B&W development with a darkbag and daylight tanks and scan my negatives.

I now technically own four MF cameras: Mamiya 645 Super, Fuji GS645 (out of commission and out of favor with me due to being too fragile), Fuji GA645 (much more suited to me than its predecessor) and an Agfa Clack, which funny enough is my largest format camera at 6x9.

When I was starting out, I was very attracted to the RB series, but ultimately opted out because I didn't want something quite that huge and took the 645 compromise in my medium format SLR. I'm not so much a landscape shooter, so portability and speed of handling is more important to me. I actually have not given up using my MF cameras for candid photography and just last week had my 645 Super, power winder grip and 145mm f4 Soft Focus out doing some deer stalking of all things. Weight matters in those situations. If you're mostly going to do landscape and still lifes on a tripod though, the RB is a very flexible system that yields a nice big 6x7 negative. I understand the Bronicas are lighter than other makes, but the used market for their accessories isn't quite as abundant as Mamiya.

There's a wealth of options in any case, so you should definitely try something since you're interested.

BimmerJake · Jul 5, 2009

thanks for all the input, although i'm probably a month or so away from a purchase i feel much better about making the jump. i've never used a non metered camera before and have mixed feelings about it. what's the process for deciding aperture and shutter speed manually?

you have me fairly convinced to develop my own film. i took a class about ten years ago, but don't really remember much. would something like ilford pan f 120 be something that would be reasonably easy to develop myself? if you have the negatives you can generally take them to the lab and have them enlarged can't you? i guess i'll ask my local lab.

anyway, i don't think the weight is that big of a deal to me, i'm planning mostly tripod work and a backpack to lug on day hikes. actually i'll probably have my 35mm with me in the same bag, but i've backpacked with 60+ lbs before, so i'm not that worried about weight for day hikes.

thanks again for all your help, i'll be checking out the options you guys suggested and i'm sure i'll have more questions.

PhotoJim · Jul 5, 2009

Developing film yourself isn't too bad. I suggest you start with Ilford FP4 Plus rather than Pan-F Plus. I really love Pan-F Plus but I find FP4 Plus to be a little more forgiving in the darkroom and it's only marginally grainier. Once you get comfortable with the workflow with that film and you're getting consistent results, by all means give Pan-F Plus a try. You'll definitely want and need to use a tripod with the slower films, but that's good technique and a good habit to acquire.

BimmerJake · Jul 5, 2009

tripod's a given for me. i really enjoy the final outcome of lower iso film and the pan f seems like a good fit. i've never used it but i'm about to get some for my 35mm to try it out. when i get a few dollars together i'm gonna go ahead and get development equipment, i'm sure i can get the hang of it. and maybe i'll try the fp4 in my 35mm to ease into the process.

Peter De Smidt · Jul 5, 2009

I have two Fuji rangefinders, a GSW690III and a GW670III. They are great cameras. It's easy to hand hold them, and they work great on a good (but light) tripod. The lenses are spectacular, and there's no mirror slap.

Another good camera would be a Rollei 3.5 Automat. (I have one of these too.) With the older camera you'll probably need a CLA, and you'd probably want a brighter focusing screen than the original screen.

Leighgion · Jul 5, 2009

It really doesn't make a difference which specific B&W film you use when it comes to the developing process. You choose a developer, check charts for how long to leave your specific film in the soup and over time tailor the fine details of your process to taste. Some film/developer combos will be touchier than others about time, temperature and agitation, but ultimately you're doing the same things in slightly different proportions.

If you've a pro lab locally, they'll be happy to take some money in exchange for making you prints from 120 negs. It must be a pro lab though, as minilabs aren't going to have the machines/expertise to deal with 120.

There's no particular reason why you should get a non-metered camera unless you're really squeezing your budget, but if you do end up there, google "Sunny 16" as your working reference. All of my cameras regardless of format have built-in metering with the exception of my Clack.

BimmerJake · Jul 5, 2009

i seem to really have a crush on the RB67. what's the difference between the pro s and the pro sd? I'm also assuming these are both metered bodies, correct? what's the benefit of waist level vs. prism?

thanks again.

dougjgreen · Jul 5, 2009

There is no metering in any RB body. If you want metering, you need to buy a metering prism finder. However, for landscape work, a hand held meter is probably even better. As for the differences between the Pro S and Pro SD, there are some additional interlocks between the body/shutter, and the film advance in the back - and also, the lens mount in the Pro SD allows for a couple of larger throat (faster) lenses.

sanking · Jul 5, 2009

You might want to consider the Fuji GA645Zi, an auto-focus, auto-exposure 6X4.5 camera with a variable focus lens (55mm - 90mm). The variable focus range is not great but offers a lot more flexibility than a fixed lens.

I also own a Fuji GSW690III and a Mamiya 7II outfit, but the GA645Zi is my favorite MF walking around camera by far. And the lens quality is outstanding.

Sandy King

BimmerJake · Jul 5, 2009

i'm all but set on the mamiya. question about the lenses. the 90 and the 127 are considered standard. i'm used to 50 being standard on my 35mm. is the standard vs. wide just different because of the different format? will looking through the mamiya 90mm give me the same general proportions of the 50mm on my nikon?

Thanks again, you guys rock! this is one of the most n00b friendly forums i've ever been on.

aldevo · Jul 5, 2009

BimmerJake said:
tripod's a given for me. i really enjoy the final outcome of lower iso film and the pan f seems like a good fit. i've never used it but i'm about to get some for my 35mm to try it out. when i get a few dollars together i'm gonna go ahead and get development equipment, i'm sure i can get the hang of it. and maybe i'll try the fp4 in my 35mm to ease into the process.

The great thing about B&W development is that you can easily get started for about $70 with reels, a tank, and a changing bag. The really, really great thing about B&W development is that the amount of money you have to spend really has no bearing in the outcome. A little bit of discipline (and not much is needed) goes a long way and asking questions can get you the rest of the way there.

Pan-F+ is great stuff. It builds contrast quickly (as low ISO films do) so you definitely will want to be developing it yourself; especially if you are doing landscapes where you cannot control the lighting.

It's definitely worth feeling out the B&W development process before investing in MF. I don't think RB67 prices will go to the moon in the interim...

aldevo · Jul 5, 2009

BimmerJake said:
i'm all but set on the mamiya. question about the lenses. the 90 and the 127 are considered standard. i'm used to 50 being standard on my 35mm. is the standard vs. wide just different because of the different format? will looking through the mamiya 90mm give me the same general proportions of the 50mm on my nikon?

Thanks again, you guys rock! this is one of the most n00b friendly forums i've ever been on.

If you want the equivalent 35mm focal length for a 6x7 lens, you can divide it by around ~2.07. Using that conversion, a 127mm lens becomes ~61mm and a 90mm lens is about ~43 mm or ~44 mm in 35mm.

BimmerJake · Jul 5, 2009

i'm planning on doing some development with my 35mm stuff over the next couple of months. my mf purchase is at least a couple months away, i like to have lots of time to consider and plan. a few hundred dollars in the grand scheme of things is not a lot of money, but it's still a considerable investment for me.

so i think i will get the development equipment soon (next couple of weeks) and start practicing on my 35mm film.

thanks aldevo for the lens info, that makes sense.

BimmerJake · Jul 5, 2009

do you guys generally use a light meter when using a waist level finder without internal metering? or do you use the sunny 16 method?

MattKing · Jul 5, 2009

Both - I generally use my meter in incident mode, and consider the results/options in light of sunny 16 and past experience.

Matt

paul ron · Jul 5, 2009

24mm = 35mm in 645, 40mm in 6X6, 50mm in 6X7

35mm = 50mm in 645, 60mm in 6X6, 75mm in 6X7

50mm = 75mm in 645, 80mm in 6X6, 100mm in 6X7

85mm = 100mm in 645, 120mm in 6X6, 150mm in 6X7

100mm = 150mm in 645, 160mm in 6X6, 200mm in 6X7

200mm = 300mm in 645, 350mm in 6X6, 400mm in 6X7

300mm = 400mm in 645, 500mm in 6X6, 600mm in 6x7

Hand held meters are more accurate than metered finders. Besides most of em use old 1.3v silver batteries that are hard to get in the USA.

thinking about medium format...

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