Thinking about getting a Leica

clayne · Jan 24, 2012

Point is though that unless some amount of overlap is done with the shutter opening there will be some amount of non-reducible latency inherent to only SLRs.

I'm surely not using a rangefinder for long exposures or other trick photography. I'm using it to be there and record exactly what I see with minimal delay. You can predict when to start prepping focus but you may not be able to predict when it's best to click until right at that specific moment.

Rol_Lei Nut · Jan 25, 2012

Short "latency" (aka shutter lag) is a significant difference in (most) rangefinders compared to SLRs.
Also, all SLRs are definitely not created equal for that.

Another advantage, coupled with the short lag, is that you can see exactly what you're capturing while the shutter is open, while in an SLR the scene is blacked out (the simplest example is that you can notice if the subject shut his/her eyes while the shutter was open).
But details like that probably aren't important to "feature" junkies....

Steve Roberts · Jan 25, 2012

Nicholas Lindan said:
You can get all that quietness in a $15 Agfa Silette/Solina. Ok, so the optical quality won't make you think Sumicron, .

...Or indeed with a Kodak Retina. I recently picked up a 1a with the Schneider lens for £20 and it delivers amazingly good results. I also have a Leica that cost me more than twenty times that sum, but pound for pound the Kodak is by far the better bang for your buck. Yes, the Leica is superbly engineered and is to be appreciated for that, but the Retina is no slouch.

Steve

thegman · Jan 25, 2012

If you're looking to get a range finder, and only Leica will do, that's fine, but otherwise looks at the Bessa models by Cosina Voigtlander, and the Zeiss Ikon. The Zeiss Ikon used is probably about the same price as an M3, but has a spec more like the M7.

The Bessa models don't have the build quality of the Ikon or Leica, but they are nice little cameras available at a good price.

I don't see why range finders are not good for long exposures, in fact sometimes they are better than SLRs because you can continue to watch the scene through the finder whilst the shutter is open, SLRs, you cannot.

I like an shoot range finders, but I don't buy into some of the arguments about them, you can get SLRs just as small like the Pentax MX, the noise difference is certainly noticeable, but unlikely to be an issue in most circumstances. For me, it's purely about feel, and also the M lenses. Not because M lenses are particularly amazing, but because they hold their value very well.

fotch · Jan 25, 2012

Leica is like a high end sports car, a SLR like the family sedan.

rakeshmravi · Jan 25, 2012

fotch said:
Leica is like a high end sports car, a SLR like the family sedan.

This is not a good comparison for Leica. For all practical purpose, you can get more done with a family sedan than with a sports car. Here is US, most sports car (rear wheel drive) are not even useful in winter.

cliveh · Jan 25, 2012

Yes, I was doubtful about this analogy, as I would describe a Leica as a perfect bicycle. No engine, as you need to feel at one with the instrument.

Rol_Lei Nut · Jan 26, 2012

cliveh said:
Yes, I was doubtful about this analogy, as I would describe a Leica as a perfect bicycle. No engine, as you need to feel at one with the instrument.

+1

And like a bicycle, knowing how to use it properly makes all the difference....

E. von Hoegh · Jan 26, 2012

"Shutter latency"? Has anyone compared this to the reaction time of the meat computer operating the camera? If so, you'll have found that it isn't of much significance, except as a debating point. The mirror blackout is more significant, but, depending on which lens one is using, can be worked around by keeping the non-viewfinder eye open.

rakeshmravi · Jan 28, 2012

So far been with the camera for about a week. This is what I find.

-> There is the advantage of weight as expected. So for carrying it around, it is very nice, better than F6.
-> One other slight advantage vs F6 is that people are less focusing on me. Although this is not much issue for me.
-> Also, hand holding at low speed in the alleys is better because it just feel so much light compared to my F6 with a 24-70

Noisewise, F6 is better. In silent mode it is very quite, quiter than the M6 I tried in the shop today.
Vibration, F6 is still better. This is more has to do with the my VR lens than the camera itself. Even when low level holding, I get sharp pictures at about 15 fps.

However, what most effected me is the ergonomics. There is just no way Leica or any other SLR that I tried can compete with the F6, which is what really matters for me. The features of the camera simply just comes into fingers without the need to think about the camera. I also don't like how imbalanced the Leica is holding with one hand with a lens, especially when my hand got a little sweaty. (Yest. I had winter moisturizing cream, but the tem in afternoon shot up to 50s). . The guy in the shop showed me camera with grip attachment. But it just didn't work for me.

So in the end, I will not get the Leica. Just don't see the benefit outweighing the expense. Thanks for all of your inputs.

BradleyK · Jan 28, 2012

cliveh said:
Yes, I was doubtful about this analogy, as I would describe a Leica as a perfect bicycle. No engine, as you need to feel at one with the instrument.

+1.

epatsellis · Jan 28, 2012

It's been an interesting read for me, being in essentially the same boat (sort of...) In my case, I was given my late uncle's M3 SS with a 50 DR Summicron, after several rolls and using it as my sole film camera for a few weeks, it just doesn't jive with my shooting style. The M3 needs a CLA, the slow speed escapement isn't working, but while the images I've shot are exposed well (between 1/30 and 1/1000, of course), and sharper than I'm used to, the "rangefinder zen" hasn't happened for me.

So off to Youxin for a CLA and I'll likely sell the outfit off.

Even with the cost issue off the table, sometimes you just don't fit with the rangefinder concept.

erie

BradleyK · Jan 28, 2012

epatsellis said:
It's been an interesting read for me, being in essentially the same boat (sort of...) In my case, I was given my late uncle's M3 SS with a 50 DR Summicron, after several rolls and using it as my sole film camera for a few weeks, it just doesn't jive with my shooting style. The M3 needs a CLA, the slow speed escapement isn't working, but while the images I've shot are exposed well (between 1/30 and 1/1000, of course), and sharper than I'm used to, the "rangefinder zen" hasn't happened for me.

So off to Youxin for a CLA and I'll likely sell the outfit off.

Even with the cost issue off the table, sometimes you just don't fit with the rangefinder concept.

erie

No! Don't be hasty! As I pointed out in an earlier post - and others here would doubtless agree - getting familiar and comfortable with a rangefinder takes time. This is, I would argue, especially the case if one is, or has been, an SLR shooter. By all means do the CLA, then get some Tri-X/HP-5 and get out and do some more shooting with the little gem.

BrianL · Jan 28, 2012

It is a different perspective and shooting style that takes some time to get used to; take some time before cutting your losses.

It may sound strange but the camera design I've always felt most comfortable with is the TLR but, I can as easily do slr, rangefinder and view. But then again I also prefer the Alpa and Exacta configurations to other slr layouts. Only takes practice.

rakeshmravi · Jan 28, 2012

I think it is perhaps ones preference to one style. And it might change over time also. In my case it didn't work out that much better than what I thought would be in terms of the holding feel of the camera. That was all. Other than that, RFs are perfect. I might get one later (perhaps few years later) just for the kicks.

fotch · Jan 28, 2012

The camera is just a tool used to take a pictsure, much like a hammer is a tool to drive a nail. The more tools you have that you know how to use, the more versitle you become. It is a plus to have a tool that does not need a battery to work. Oh well, to each their own.

epatsellis · Jan 28, 2012

I have plenty of non-battery dependent cameras, my preferred format leans towards 8x10 LF at the moment.

I've comfotably shot with 35mm and MF SLR's, Rollei TLRs and numerous LF cameras. I can see the potential, but my work doesn't take advantage of it's strengths. In fact I rarely shoot much smaller than 6x6 anymore, leaving the 35mm cameras to my wife. I'm getting into a serious "decluttering" mode as camera equipment has taken over my workspace, and a little extra $$$ means a lot to me, now being a full time student as well.

I'm sure had I spent the last 35 years shooting with a rangefinder, it would be as comfortable as an SLR to me. It needs a CLA anyway, I'll decide after it gets returned.

dugrant153 · Jan 28, 2012

rakeshmravi said:
So far been with the camera for about a week. This is what I find.

-> There is the advantage of weight as expected. So for carrying it around, it is very nice, better than F6.
-> One other slight advantage vs F6 is that people are less focusing on me. Although this is not much issue for me.
-> Also, hand holding at low speed in the alleys is better because it just feel so much light compared to my F6 with a 24-70

Noisewise, F6 is better. In silent mode it is very quite, quiter than the M6 I tried in the shop today.
Vibration, F6 is still better. This is more has to do with the my VR lens than the camera itself. Even when low level holding, I get sharp pictures at about 15 fps.

However, what most effected me is the ergonomics. There is just no way Leica or any other SLR that I tried can compete with the F6, which is what really matters for me. The features of the camera simply just comes into fingers without the need to think about the camera. I also don't like how imbalanced the Leica is holding with one hand with a lens, especially when my hand got a little sweaty. (Yest. I had winter moisturizing cream, but the tem in afternoon shot up to 50s). . The guy in the shop showed me camera with grip attachment. But it just didn't work for me.

So in the end, I will not get the Leica. Just don't see the benefit outweighing the expense. Thanks for all of your inputs.

Thanks for sharing your experience! This really helps me put things in perspective! Do you have large hands by chance? I find I need bigger SLR bodies just to get a better grip!

rakeshmravi · Jan 29, 2012

dugrant153 said:
Thanks for sharing your experience! This really helps me put things in perspective! Do you have large hands by chance? I find I need bigger SLR bodies just to get a better grip!

No, I have a small/average hand size. I am 5'6 and an lean. So an average hand size for that height. If I had a large hand, I will never be able to work with the RF, again because of the ergonomics.

BrianL · Jan 29, 2012

Last night my son and I were having a discussion as to his photography so as it is time to start thinning out as my mobility reduces. We brought up a number of cameras and started looking at what he might want. At the end of the discussion he made an observation that I was fondling my Leica and Rolleiflex almost sexually (his words) while the others including the Bronica got little attention. Only other camera to get any real attention was the Minox C that is retired.

After putting everything away I thought about the issues of equipment vesitility, quality, etc. verus pleasure and enjoyment and relialized that though the results from the Bronica are equal to the Rolleiflex and Leica for my shooting preferences, it was just a tool while the others involved a moment of pleasure the Bronica did not, an emotional connection that was showing in some of the transparencies we looked at; all taken about the same time, I was shooting mf transparencies at the time.

In hindsight, if you find the Leica emotionally involving even if you question whether you are good enough to match its ability while you think of your other cameras a tools of the trade, go for the Leica. It may or may not make you a better photographer but, the experience may be more involving and gratifying. Go to the store, grab an me with the 50 Summicron, rub it, feel it against your cheek, look through the finder, slowly advance the film to feel how smooth the system works and slowly press the shutter release button. If it puts a smile on your face and your first thought is something like your camera now feels somewhat clunky or not as refined, it just maybe you are a candidate to adopt a Leica.

clayne · Jan 29, 2012

I do not have small hands and fine no issue with Leica ergonomics. The majority of bottom plate support is done by the left hand with the left index finger doing the tab focusing at the same time. Right hand for gripping the side and right index finger for shutter.

You should be using part of the hands underneath the bottom plate for support. Not doing this would result in strange ergonomics.

cliveh · Jan 29, 2012

Stop thinking about it and get one.

rakeshmravi · Jan 30, 2012

cliveh said:
Stop thinking about it and get one.

Like I stated before... I stopped doing both thining and getting Leica

vpwphoto · Jan 30, 2012

This might get me tossed out of here...
Replace "audiophile" with Leicaphile or Nikophile or whatever...

Explanations for why manufacturers, audiophiles and the "tweakers" perpetuate the myths of the subjective audio crowd are varied but one simple explanation is cognitive dissonance: having just spent thousands of dollars on something that does very little or nothing, it is easier to adjust one's thinking to "Wow! spending hundreds of dollars on little ceramic insulators that keep my speaker wires off the floor has opened up the sound stage and improved the distinction between the violin parts!", than it is to admit the fundamental realities that say "I can't believe how dumb I have been" and "my wife will kill me!". The brilliant thing about this is that it works in inverse proportionality to how dumb the purchase was - so the more ridiculous the tweak, the more believing the purchaser will be.[3] This brings into question the review policy of subjective audio reviewers such as Positive

Read it all at:
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Audio_woo

Just having a little fun... I still think HBC, and Sebastiao Salgado and others and images have a certain something not available from the Asian Glass.

darkosaric · Jan 30, 2012

vpwphoto said:
I still think HBC, and Sebastiao Salgado and others and images have a certain something not available from the Asian Glass.

I think Salgado was using Nikon before he got a Leica sponsorship.

Thinking about getting a Leica

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