Thinking about a TLR.. few questions

JRJacobs · Aug 28, 2009

QG -

Everyone here knows that you are a Hasselblad-Only type person, and that you believe it is superior to all other cameras. That is fine, and if you can't visualize DOF without previewing it, then you are using the right camera for you.

But your statements are slightly like imperialism - you are projecting your experiences onto others. Many people CAN visualize DOF without needing to use preview - I never touch it on my Hasselblad, don't need to. I know tons of folks who shoot with rangefinders and TLRs who can visualize it too.

Just because you cannot, does not mean that others cannot either and are somehow fooling themselves.

Q.G. · Aug 28, 2009

JRJacobs said:
QG -

Everyone here knows that you are a Hasselblad-Only type person, and that you believe it is superior to all other cameras. That is fine, and if you can't visualize DOF without previewing it, then you are using the right camera for you.

If it were true (which it is not), it has nothing whatsoever to do with the use of having a DOF-preview.

So i think i touched a nerve.
But keep cool. Only fun.

JRJacobs said:
But your statements are slightly like imperialism - you are projecting your experiences onto others. Many people CAN visualize DOF without needing to use preview - I never touch it on my Hasselblad, don't need to. I know tons of folks who shoot with rangefinders and TLRs who can visualize it too.

Just because you cannot, does not mean that others cannot either and are somehow fooling themselves.

Many cameras indeed do not have DOF-preview, yes.
Many cameras have limitations that have to be overcome somehow.

But that's ground enough for you to tell all of the people who have cameras that do have this feature that they either are incompetent, or should shun the use of the thingy?
Are the manufacturers who put such a thing on a camera/lens, and all the people who see it as a usefull thing fooling ourselves?

Sirius Glass · Aug 28, 2009

Checking the DOF has to do with what one is photographing. I am shooting a lot of landscapes in bright light with fast film. I know that everything will be in focus.

If on the other hand I am using a 20mm lens on a 35mm camera or the SWC on a close object and I want everything to be sharp at infinity, I will check the DOF. Admittedly, with the SWC, if the object is closer than three feet that means setting up the tripod, removing the film back, attaching the RMfx, focusing, removing the RMfx, putting on the film back and then taking the photograph ... more likely I will take out a tape measure based on my experience or move back about a foot.

If I am using extension tubes, I am much more likely to check the DOF.

Steve

JRJacobs · Aug 28, 2009

Q.G. said:
I
But that's ground enough for you to tell all of the people who have cameras that do have this feature that they either are incompetent, or should shun the use of the thingy?

I never said anyone was incompetent, or should shun the use of the DOF preview. You are putting words in my mouth (or, my keyboard).

Let's get back to the point - because YOU are unable to visualize DOF, does not mean that others cannot either.

Q.G. said:
Are the manufacturers who put such a thing on a camera/lens, and all the people who see it as a usefull thing fooling ourselves?

Some cameras have TTL meters, and some do not. Are the manufacturers who put such a thing on a camera, and all the folks who use them "fooling themselves" because they cannot guess an exposure?

Q.G. · Aug 28, 2009

JRJacobs said:
I never said anyone was incompetent, or should shun the use of the DOF preview. You are putting words in my mouth (or, my keyboard).

Am i?
You did say that this thing that professionals do not need may be usefull to people who can't do something.

JRJacobs said:
Let's get back to the point - because YOU are unable to visualize DOF, does not mean that others cannot either.

See?

But you're still talking about DOF.
DOF is a mathematical entity, that is supposed to be a range in which everything appears equally sharp.
That's not what the preview lever is for.

The preview lever is to see what in your 3D scene will be rendered how unsharp exactly.

That's not something tables tell you. Nor something that is judged easily with any accuracy (very coarsely: yes, no problem).

JRJacobs said:
Some cameras have TTL meters, and some do not. Are the folks who use TTL meters "fooling themselves" because they cannot guess an exposure?

Aha! Now we're getting there. You only got it the wrong way round: are the people who rather rely on a meter fooling themselves?
Should they instead rely on the knowledge that "Any experienced photog knows how the" exposure "will be rendered for a given aperture and focal lenght.", etc.?

JRJacobs · Aug 28, 2009

QC -

Obviously it is your enjoyment to be simply argumentative.

It appears that you believe that if YOU cannot do something, then others cannot either.

I suspect there are many, many RF and TLR users here on APUG who would disagree with you.

I shoot every day for 4 hours or better - I know my lenses very well, and know how they will render a scene at a given aperture.

It is not rocket science, it is called EXPERIENCE.

Q.G. · Aug 28, 2009

JRJacobs said:
QC -

Obviously it is your enjoyment to be simply argumentative.

It appears that you believe that if YOU cannot do something, then others cannot either.

I suspect there are many, many RF and TLR users here on APUG who would disagree with you.

I shoot every day for 4 hours or better - I know my lenses very well, and know how they will render a scene at a given aperture.

It is not rocket science, it is called EXPERIENCE.

I know.
Telling people you have some does not mean that others don't.

The continued use of the notion DOF, and not recognizing that RFs and TLRs have their limitations, i find not very convincing.
But so be it.

I will admit that i like a good argument.
But i argue one, particular point. And i am all too easily convinced, by convincing reasoning and arguments.
So argumentative? I don't think so.

brian steinberger · Aug 28, 2009

OK guys, thats enough now...

The reason why visually seeing DOF is important to me is because I already own two MF rangefinders which I love to death. I cannot view DOF through them obviously, though from years using them I know somewhat how DOF will look at certain apertures, but I am still surprised sometimes. So the ability to view through the lens and actually see myself focus is a spec I would like in my next camera. It has nothing to do with visualizing DOF or actually seeing it. If I only had one camera and it was a RF then I could live without viewing DOF.

Did that make any sense?

Sirius Glass · Aug 28, 2009

Yes.

And as the OP requested, let us cover other areas of concern.

Steve

brian steinberger · Aug 28, 2009

I am the OP....

Sirius Glass · Aug 29, 2009

I know.

I did not want the thread to become an endless debate about one thing, and then you would not get your questions answered.

Steve

brian steinberger · Aug 29, 2009

Steve, I know. This thread has offered me so much help. It has helped me determine that TLR's are not for me. But hopefully this thread can help others learn about them, and judging from the number of views hopefully already has. Thanks!

Ian Grant · Aug 29, 2009

Brian, some things are missed out, I've used TLR's since the late 60's and I still use MF SLR's and the truth is they are all quite easy to use, far more so than many pre war MF cameras.

You should at least try a TLR, I did while at school, then much later (5 or 6 years) bought one then two more. Then when they were stolen I went 645 SLR, now I'm back with 2 TLR's as well.

They are fun to use but great tools to and having no DOF preview is a blessing, it's not reliable, experience is.

Ian

Lightproof · Aug 29, 2009

Technically speaking, DOF preview does not work for me. The look of the focus screen becomes muddy real fast by stopping down; you lose resolution on the screen while winning DOF.

But under ideal conditions (tons of light) the stop-down lever can of course be helpful to demonstrate the effect of a properly set aperture to somebody less experienced

k_jupiter · Aug 29, 2009

OMG, What a bunch of bull.

Most of the better images I have taken inmy life were with a C220. No DOF. But.. Occasionally I am shooting a subject where I am interested in isolating the subject critically, very recently, an artist painting on a bridge in Paris. I wanted HER, and all else to to fade out... Had the rb67, a 127 lens and of course, DOF previsualization... This is a one in 200 situation event. Most time, I shoot at the aperture that gives me the best image for the lens, f8-11-16. Whatever the light and film speed allows me to use.

So... if you think DOF is so important, use it. If you don't, a tlr, especially a Mamiya C series will give you amazing photos. If this so, get your Mamiya or Rollie.

tim in san jose

Thinking about a TLR.. few questions

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