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Thermometer Orientation

CMoore

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Assuming i am talking about the typical.....
Glass
Stick
Some kind of colored fluid so you can read the scale
Thermometer.
.....Can they be in a Horizontal position...completely flat on the tray bottom and in the chemistry.?
I tried a very short "test" and it seems to be fine, but is there any reason i should not simply lay my thermometer on the tray bottom and let it lay flat to read it.?
Just leave it in the tray bottom the whole time.....20 minutes, 3 hours, or however long.?
Thank You
 

Bill Burk

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I don't know any reason why not. I assume you are not trying to read to a technically correct nearest half-degree.

I think it would be awkward and hard to read, but if it feels right, I think you would be fine.
 

Vaughn

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Should be no problem -- some trays have divets that keep tongs from slipping and I use them to lean the thermometer in the tray...but remove it after the reading.
 
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CMoore

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I don't know any reason why not. I assume you are not trying to read to a technically correct nearest half-degree.

I think it would be awkward and hard to read, but if it feels right, I think you would be fine.
Exactly.
It is about 77-82 in my Darkroom. So i have bags of ice in all the trays. I am most concerned about the developer, but i have ice in all the trays.
I have been leaving the thermometer in the developer tray, and just checking to see that it "stays" about 20 degrees. When it gets to 20, i take the ice out of all the trays.
If the thermometer gets up to 21-22 degrees, i put the bags back in.
 

markbarendt

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I've tried the IR temp guns and found that one must take them with a grain of salt. For example painted surfaces typically can be read correctly but clear liquids and unpainted metal can, and regularly will, fool the meter into a false reading.

Like light metering it takes some practice to get reliable readings.
 

MattKing

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My Kodak Polymax T developer seems to work fine at 80F on those rare occasions that it gets that warm here. The Kodak Rapid Fixer I use seems fine as well.
Why bother cooling it down, when warm room temperature is most likely quite usable?
 

AgX

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Most scientific thermometers are designed for only the bulb to be immersed. There are even algorithms for that.
But for your purpose exact metering is not necessary anyway.
 
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CMoore

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My Kodak Polymax T developer seems to work fine at 80F on those rare occasions that it gets that warm here. The Kodak Rapid Fixer I use seems fine as well.
Why bother cooling it down, when warm room temperature is most likely quite usable?
Hey Matt -
I am not really sure.
I HAVE developed at "Room Temp", but that was earlier in the year and it was about 70-71. I looked up the slower times at.....is it called The Massive Chart.?
Wouldn't the times at 80 degrees be pretty fast.?
I realize that, in the end, all that matters is acceptable results...but i am still quite new to all this, and just trying to stay close to the Ilford/Photo Formu times that they suggest with their products.
I do not really have the experience to know what i can and cannot get away with.
If i can figure a way to mount this thermometer in my trays...at least the Developer Tray...i think i would be a lot more comfortable knowing i am close to the factory Temps/Times.
I have enough problems with my "Photography" as it is. I am trying not to add Cockiness to my arsenal of shortcomings.
 

lantau

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Those thermometers are a capillary. So orientation doesn't matter to them. The thermal expansion is the only force that can move the meniscus. The surface at the top of the liquid column will not break and so the bulk below has nowhere to go, That would create a vaccuam, after all. It can be done of course by applying a strong g-force to the thermometer, such as falling down without breaking. You've probably seen that before, when the liquid column is 'broken' into segments with a gap in between. To fix that you'd have to retract the entire column into the reservoir. It might take dry ice to do that.
 

AgX

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If i can figure a way to mount this thermometer in my trays...at least the Developer Tray...i think i would be a lot more comfortable..

You can attach by doublesided tape some plate to the outside of your tray and fasten the themometer to it by a clamp or PVC-covered eletro-wire.
However depending on lenght of your thermometer you better keep it inside the tray, fastening it as above.
 

jlbruyelle

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That is correct, infrared thermometers are more difficult to use than other types. This is because you need to take into consideration the emissivity, which is a characteristic of the material you are measuring, and can vary considerably from a material to another: for gold it is about 0.05, for water it is about 0.95 on a scale ranging from 0 to 1.You need to set the right emissivity for your material in your thermometer, otherwise it will not give you accurate readings. This is one of the reasons why infrared thermometers are not much used in a darkroom.
 

Bill Burk

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Most scientific thermometers are designed for only the bulb to be immersed. There are even algorithms for that.
But for your purpose exact metering is not necessary anyway.
That's what I had in mind. When you need the accuracy and precision you immerse the bulb to a specific depth. All the way in would lead to the reading being slightly off. But for most purposes you're trying to be consistent not necessarily accurate and precise.
 

MattKing

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When you are developing prints in trays, you are developing more to near "completion" than to a specific time. The time recommendations in the instructions are there to help you get to completion, not as hard and fast rules. You will notice that the times are often expressed as a range, rather than a specific time.
What does cause problems is either inconsistent times, or inconsistent temperatures.
You may also cause problems if your various solutions are each at a different temperature - thus my concern about using individual ice packs. A common source of tempering water to cool all the trays would be of less concern.
As long as you work within a reasonable range, you can choose an alternate time as your target, stick to that time, and your results will be fine. With prints in trays, developing for too short a time causes problems, but you have to work really hard to cause problems by developing too long.
If the manufacturer recommends a single time, either use it, because an 80-82F temperature won't hurt, or use a time that is something like 80% of the recommended time.
If the manufacturer recommends a range of times like 1 - 3 minutes, just use a time near the shorter end.
In many cases you can compensate for the high temperature by increasing the dilution a bit (but don't worry about that yet).
And, once you gain more experience, you may want to look into something called factorial development, which is excellent for taking into account all sorts of variables, including higher temperatures (but again don't worry about that yet).
The idea to use ice wasn't a bad idea, but it would probably have been better to ask more generally if 80-82F temperatures were a problem, and if so, how best to deal with them.
And it certainly is a good idea to monitor the developer temperature, but generally the problems occur when it either gets too cold, or when it gets so hot that you probably shouldn't be working in there.
I would be giving different advice if you were doing production printing and you depended on an ability to obtain highly repeatable results in a highly efficient manner. That's when close temperature control along with accurate agitation and monitoring of chemicals (usually through mechanized agitation and control strips and replenishment) is necessary.

Which developer are you using?
 
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CMoore

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Hey Matt -
I am using (although i started a different post ABOUT developers) Photo Form Liquidol. I guess it is a Dektol clone.?
I suppose i just assumed that near 80 degrees was too hot.
It is also no fun working in an 80 Degree darkroom.
I am going to see if there are any "Affordable" Move & Cool devices that i might be able to use during these hot times.
Thanks For Your Help
 

MattKing

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Liquidol. I guess it is a Dektol clone.?
Ron Mowrey (Photo Engineer here on PHOTRIO) may be upset to read this.
Ron and Bill Troop designed and developed it together.
It is arguably the most advanced print developer available - certainly not a Dektol "clone".
Taking certain costs and shipping realities into account, it is easier and considerably cheaper for me to get my developer of choice - Polymax T - to my location here in Canada, otherwise I would have switched to Liquidol.
Ron will probably tell you that Liquidol was deigned to be used at 68F. But I bet he will follow it up with something like "use what works for you .
 
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CMoore

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Ron Mowrey (Photo Engineer here on PHOTRIO) may be upset to read this.
Oh Boy.....let me qualify that. In no way am i in a position to make a statement like that. I was simply repeating a few things i have read, and it was Dektol that people in the reviews were comparing this developer to.
Other than their well known names, I would not know Dektol from D-76.
I am not even sure why you would use a different developer.
I did see that some claim to impart a Warm, and others a Neutral tone to the print.
I am not sure if that is true, partial true, or marketing.
At my level of "expertise".....i simply need a developer that will hit RC Variable Pearl Ilford the same way each time. That and have a decent shelf life.
As you can see, it has been pretty warm in my darkroom as of late, and my half empty, two month old, one liter bottle of Liquidol did its job with no trouble.
I was just curious to try a different developer. But i would also be happy to just keep buying Liquidol and concentrate my efforts on learning about Adding/Subtracting Y and M for contrast.....and learning when it might be better to Dodge/Burn.
So far, in my VERY Limited experience, i seem to get better results from just leaving the Magenta knob on 10, the Y and C knobs at Zero, and then burn a portion of the photo for a few seconds if there is something lacking..
I know there are always Variables and Specifics.....but Generally Speaking, why would a photographer (printing basic black and white with RC variable contrast paper) want to use one developer over another.?
thank you
 

RalphLambrecht

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thats my experience too. IR-thermometers readings aren't very accurate but, they are sufficiently repeatable and safe for objects you don't want to get too close too.
 

MattKing

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Generally Speaking, why would a photographer (printing basic black and white with RC variable contrast paper) want to use one developer over another.?
thank you
Long storage life - Liquidol is great for that.
Long life when one is either leaving developer in trays, or returning partially used developer to a storage bottle, for continuing use in the next printing session - Liquidol is also great for that.
Economy - some can end up being much more expensive to buy and use than others.
Image tone - the basic colour of the image can change from slightly warm (greys are very slightly brown) to neutral to cold (greys are very slightly bluish) when you change developers - although the basic Ilford RC VC paper doesn't respond much that way. In the same vein, for any particular paper, each developer will give you an image with a particular appearance. The differences (contrast, depth and detail in shadows, mid-tones and highlights) can be almost vanishingly subtle, but they are there. Some photographers will prefer one over another. You may not even notice.
Ease of handling - liquid concentrates are easy to store and dilute just what you need for use, whereas powders are easy to ship and easier to store unopened.
Some developers are more likely to bring rise to allergenic reactions for some people. It is a good idea to use either tongs or gloves or both with print developers, even if people like me have ignored that advice off and on for decades.
There are some special developers that are finicky to handle, and likely to leave users with stained hands or trays. You wouldn't use those developers anyways with RC papers.
It is fun to try side by side comparisons between print developers. My darkroom group has done that, but I don't know that anyone has switched their individual choices as a result.
 

Photo Engineer

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There are two types of thermometers. One is to be used totally immersed, and the other is to be used by immersing up to a marked line on the thermometer itself or the protective case it is enclosed in. Of the latter, there are often 2" or 1" immersion thermometers. Generally, if these are used by total immersion, they give higher readings but not by much. I generally ignore the differences. It is really not important, as long as you do the same thing every time and use the same temperature. Of course, this only goes for B&W. Color is more critical. For that, I have a total immersion thermometer that I place in the Jobo tray and I read it before using, even though my Jobo has a digital indicator.

As for Liquidol, it is a developer more like HC110 in terms of keeping and quality, but is designed for paper. It is designed to work like Dektol, but the formulas do not have any resemblance. Dektol is an MQ developer and Liquidol is not. In a tray, Liquidol has far more capacity and life than Dektol. However, Liquidol is not designed to work much above about 22C.

PE
 
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CMoore

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Hey P E -
Thanks for lending your knowledge.
That has been my main intent, to monitor the temp, and keep it somewhat consistent. I really appreciate the info regards Liquidlol and Max Temp. I will Definitely Keep That Number in mind when i develop.
I really do appreciate Pho Form and Ilford. For Whatever My small amount of money makes a difference...I kind of like to buy from both of you guys, and help to keep both companies afloat.
I would like to try some Ilford Universal...just out of curiosity.
Probably will not make any huge difference.
Like i say, i am perfectly content to keep using Ilford RC Pearl Paper and develop it with Photo Form Liquidol for the next many years.
Thanks Again
 

Vaughn

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thats my experience too. IR-thermometers readings aren't very accurate but, they are sufficiently repeatable and safe for objects you don't want to get too close too.
Because of its repeatablity and then calibrating it by having a regular thermometer in a tray, it seems that it would work well with B&W.

How many people use the dial thermometers? I was constantly recalibrating those at the university (could not trust students with glass ones in the darkroom!)
 

Chan Tran

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thats my experience too. IR-thermometers readings aren't very accurate but, they are sufficiently repeatable and safe for objects you don't want to get too close too.
There a many application where IR is the one to use. Of course everyone knows that it's a non contact but there is another significant benefit of IR is their response time is very fast. Any other contact thermometer needs at least a few seconds if not much longer to get stabilized reading. However, IR thermometer is very inaccurate. Several degrees off is kind of the norm.