The weird and wonderful world of the camera club

Dave Miller · Nov 5, 2004

Tom Stanworth said:
Hi,

I have never been to a camera or photography club, thank goodness (tho I am sure there are a few good'uns out there). Mercifully I have had the misfortune of meeting some members (from various clubs) before ever going near. Unfortunately these meeting have usually been whilst exhibiting work of my own, when the ambience has suffered terribly during their presence. Boring, talentless, unimaginative, childish, social reject, devoid of social skills, body odour, arrogant....all come to mind. Very few have any concept of 'art' and are fully loved up on photographic stuff (filters/digital effects/gizmos). Most also carry worn out plastic bags full of odds and sods (including camera of course). One of my favourites was a chap I missed (but the person sitting in on the exhibition did not). He dicided to stand in the centre of the room giving the visitors his own running commentary (expert advice for free, how generous), also adding that he taught photography at his club and usually did the judging. He also fascinatingly told every single person who passed that he had a lens in his pocket that [pointing at one of my pictures he said] "I could have taken that one with". Had I been there I would have thanked him in my own special way or perhaps charged people (my exhibition was of course free) to see the village idiot. This is not a one off unfortunately and there have been many such encounters....like the chap who told me one of my prints was not very black (when the black background was at Dmax and selenium toned). He was not prepared to discuss it at all. I was wrong, had erred and needed to be told off.....and then there are the print sniffers...

Tom

May I respectfully suggest Tom that you do attend a few clubs before repeating such a silly post again!

Max Power · Nov 5, 2004

Tom Stanworth said:
.....and then there are the print sniffers...

Tom

What the heck is a 'print sniffer'?

Kent

Mongo · Nov 5, 2004

modafoto said:
We are not exactly a Photo Club, but The International Rodinal Militia (IRM) welcome all people with the right belief (the acknowledgement of Rodinal as the almighty God. The One and Only true God to rule this world!)

Now that I (seem to) have nailed developing Azo in Rodinal, is it time for me to reveal myself to the IRM? Or should I stay in hiding due to my use of Selenium toner as part of the process? I have read the scriptures of Rodinal (mine come in a little folded sheet inside of the box in which the mighty Rodinal bottle is encased) but have found no indication if I am considered clean or unclean due to my work with Selenium. Woulds't that such deep philosophical questions were more easily answered.

philldresser · Nov 5, 2004

Leon said:
sparx said:

I would like to have some sort of book club/coffee morning type of 'informal gathering' to go to but i don't think such a thing exists in Norfolk. Perhaps i will have to start one up. How about it Phil? Norfolk Monochrome Group?

Click to expand...

how about a south and east version, meeting about once every 2 months. I could come along then too! there is nothing but equipment-snobbery or admission by invitation only type clubs that i have found in the south east.

Sounds good to me. I would be willing to travel to have a monthly get together. Maybe we can discuss further on PM. (Sparx, we should still get together for a beer soon)

Phill

sparx · Nov 5, 2004

philldresser said:
Sounds good to me. I would be willing to travel to have a monthly get together. Maybe we can discuss further on PM. (Sparx, we should still get together for a beer soon)

Phill

I am liking the sound of this. Are there any other 'puggers in this area, Anglia and the South East?

Tom Stanworth · Nov 5, 2004

Dave Miller said:
May I respectfully suggest Tom that you do attend a few clubs before repeating such a silly post again!

OK, so I got a little excited, Its just that pretty well everything I have encountered to do with camera clubs has had me running (fast) for the hills. I do state at the start that I am sure that there are good ones, I just haven't bumped into any yet....quite the opposite. Thus far my experiences have, unfortunately, reinforced the stereotypes. These experiences range from seeing their exhibitions to meeting members/judges etc. I'm sure that all clubs have a unique character and overall they cover the whole gammut. I also have little time for many photo mags (B&W photography I love) and this may somehow be related. I guess I am not for the photographic mainstream. Hey maybe I'm the weirdo, doh! Better find worn out placky bag to fit in

Oh and print sniffers are people who get so close their noses bump into the glass (I have no idea why). I keep a cloth handy.

It just wouldn't be the same if we were all the same.

Tom

TPPhotog · Nov 5, 2004

sparx said:
I am liking the sound of this. Are there any other 'puggers in this area, Anglia and the South East?

Maybe we could get the EU to remove London from the UK map like they did with Wales, then the SE and SW would be quite close to each other.

Jorge · Nov 5, 2004

Max Power said:
What the heck is a 'print sniffer'?

Kent

That breed that will get their nose as close to the print as possible to inspect sharpness. If the print is behind glass, they will actually leave a nose grease print in the glass.
You might have spent 3 hours focusing, making sure the print is as sharp as possible, 4 more hours making depth of field calculations to insure sharpness, at the end of the day the print sniffer will not buy a print because they saw a single blade of grass out of focus.....
Kerik and Clay are correct, print sniffers never buy prints.

modafoto · Nov 8, 2004

Mongo said:
Now that I (seem to) have nailed developing Azo in Rodinal, is it time for me to reveal myself to the IRM? Or should I stay in hiding due to my use of Selenium toner as part of the process? I have read the scriptures of Rodinal (mine come in a little folded sheet inside of the box in which the mighty Rodinal bottle is encased) but have found no indication if I am considered clean or unclean due to my work with Selenium. Woulds't that such deep philosophical questions were more easily answered.

As long as Rodinal is helping you to a good result we approve your use of it.
No heads wil roll at this point!

The High Priest!

Ben Taylor · Nov 8, 2004

sparx said:
I am liking the sound of this. Are there any other 'puggers in this area, Anglia and the South East?

Yes, I live in Norwich, often meant to get in contact with other local APUG'ers (as always, a matter of finding the time!)

An Anglia/South East meet sounds like a good idea...

sparx · Nov 9, 2004

Ben Taylor said:
Yes, I live in Norwich, often meant to get in contact with other local APUG'ers (as always, a matter of finding the time!)

An Anglia/South East meet sounds like a good idea...

I have started a thread here: (there was a url link here which no longer exists) to gauge interest and we can take it from there.

Ed Sukach · Jul 8, 2005

Here goes ... I think this belongs here ....

In the ealier days (Minor White) was often confused and hurt by the way some of (his students) turned against him, often in obscure ways. "At first, I didn't understand it. I really had the sense that once I had the student, really had him, he was mine forever. When I first came into teaching, I really felt that without knowing that I was feeling it. I began to realize after a while that that's the way it was, and that it wasn't the way it should be. Now I realize that what I'm here for is to lay a lot of things out on the table, and let them take what they want. It doesn't make any difference to me what they take, or if they take anything. Along with that attitude the ties aren't so great. I was tying them up myself, without realizing it.

Caponigro describes the same situtation from the other side. He was at 72 North Union (White's home and studio) for a couple of months in the fall of 1957, then went back for a longer stay the next year, assisted in the 1959 summer workshop. After six months of intensive study, he felt the need to back off. "Minor was so generous and what he gave you so nourishing that it was especially hard to disagree, to separate yourself to go your own way. Everybody around him shared the same assumptions - it was really difficult to call them into question. But after a while it was inescapable -- there I was in another club. I had been in clubs before, the grand landscape club, the full-scale print club. I didn't want anything to do with clubs anymore."

- From Minor White, Rites and Passages.

Good, bad. or indifferent ... In the last analysis, you've GOT to go your own way. That is the way you will do your best. The only way.

Jon Butler · Jul 8, 2005

Leon said:
how about a south and east version, meeting about once every 2 months. I could come along then too! there is nothing but equipment-snobbery or admission by invitation only type clubs that i have found in the south east.

There has been a few home truths quoted on thread and I am in agreement. I live London and would support a South East group.

Regards JON

Baxter Bradford · Jul 9, 2005

Concept of the 'print sniffer' has made me smile. It is so true!

It is sad that so many from around the globe, myself included have similar adverse experiences of camera clubs. I agree Dave, there must be exceptions.

For those starting to develop an interest in the medium, it is an obvious thing to do to attend a Photographic club or Society to seek advice, learn and have shared experiences. The internet has offered alternatives, many of which surpass the local club.

It takes a lot of self-confidence to leave a club having decided that on the whole, the pictures presented are not ones to which you aspire to taking. Having taken this step myself, it has been rejuvinating to make pictures entirely for oneself without trying to double/treble guess what some "judge" or other might make of the picture that is about to be made. Needless to say, I feel that I am getting more enjoyment and better pictures as a result.

The pivotal moment for my decision to leave, came when the chap judging said of another persons picture which I particularly liked, that this was "very good, but not competitive photography". It was said in an honest manner with no malice and in a way as to offer advice. It was apparent that I was in the wrong place - as someone who prefers pictures with subtlety that grow on you and so that you want to live with them on your walls.

In talking with other photographers on photographic holidays/courses, the consensus is that of dissatisfaction and that they much prefer the supportive viewing that takes place in the evening (or during badlight/weather) on these courses.

Then there is the other highly emotive subject (huge can of worms about to be opened).......... running for cover as I type ......

The "distinctions" of the Royal Photographic Society.............

David H. Bebbington · Jul 9, 2005

I think Baxter makes some very valid points. I am professionally trained, have worked full-time as a pro and now concentrate only on personal art projects. I am also happy to be a member of the Isle Of Thanet Photographic Society in Kent, UK (and even a past Chairman). At the same time, I must agree with most of the criticism of camera clubs, particularly the mechanistic application of formulaic criteria to judging - this seems to happen in an attempt to mask the fact that the judges in question are totally unable/unwilling to engage with work on an emotional level.

My own camera club is by far the most liberal-minded of its kind that I know of, it has a long tradition of refusing to get stuck in a rut. Over the years, I have been glad to respond to requests and give talks on workers such as Edward Weston, Cartier-Bresson, William Eggleston, Man Ray, Nick Knight and many others and have been pleased to see how keen members are to hear and see new ideas. The "great digital debate" has been conspicuous by its total absence in our club - people are commendably un-obsessed with equipment and technology. The only thing is that I personally do not enter the club competitions - there is undeniable skill in producing "killer" shots that will blow a particular judge's socks off, but that's not what I like to do best!

RPS distinctions - the award of a distinction means that your work has appealed to a particular panel on a particular day. The panel personnel vary widely from category to category, from acknowledged experts (in sometimes very narrow fields) to self-appointed nonenties. I think that very little poor work is accepted for distinctions - the problem is that a great deal of good work is rejected. I hold an ARPS, obtained by exemption because I also hold an ABIPP - I have made several submission for an FRPS, the last one was rejected (fine, luck of the draw) without comment of any kind (rude, unprofessional, ultimately an admission of the panel's incompetence to judge contemporary work).

I think that ultimately anything that motivates people to produce more and better work is good (club competitions, distinction submissions, etc.), whatever discourages people (especially those who produce good but unconventional work) is bad - you take your choice!

Dave Miller · Jul 9, 2005

My concern with this thread is that is largely generated by those disenchanted by photographic clubs, and therefore biased, and as such may put new comers off participating in club activities. As I have stated before, I am a member of two clubs one competitive and one not. If I want to try and win competitions, then I try and take pictures that conform to the perceived competition rules. The older, and some would say, the more cantankerous I get, the more I prefer the non-competitive scene offered by the EMMG, where I am free to present images that please me. Having said that I have recently had an image accepted for Best of Friends 12 (delighted) and also have achieved the “Premier Monochrome Award” at a regional exhibition (ecstatic). Are these not forms of competition?
I long ago ceased to be a member of the RPS because I consider it grossly over priced, and I didn’t like the way it seemed to be heading and have no regrets on that score. Nevertheless I would not suggest that others do not participate, simply because it may suit them and help them get more out of this hobby.

To sum up, join a club and get involved and participate, if after a season you are not happy with it, try another. To paraphrase someone; Ask not what your club can do for you, but rather what can you do for your club.

David H. Bebbington · Jul 9, 2005

Dave Miller said:
My concern with this thread is that is largely generated by those disenchanted by photographic clubs, and therefore biased, and as such may put new comers off participating in club activities. ...

To sum up, join a club and get involved and participate, if after a season you are not happy with it, try another. To paraphrase someone; Ask not what your club can do for you, but rather what can you do for your club.

Dave, you are right, but if people are better informed about what to expect, they will also be better able to decide. I think in particular people should to be aware that they will need to sift for nuggets of gold among the stream of material to which they will be exposed, it also helps if they know that they are not alone in thinking that camera clubs have certain shortcomings. If I had not had this attitude, I would have resigned from the RPS after attending my first event (in 1993), which was the most incompetently organised waste of time I have ever experienced.
With regard to your closing remark, I believe we simply have to accept that most people's attitude today (I think not unreasonably) is "What can I get out of this?" Time pressure is such that people will not stick around for long if they are unhappy with what they are experiencing, and to expect beginners to join a camera club on the basis of what they can contribute is simply not realistic.

Regards,

David

Dave Miller · Jul 9, 2005

David H. Bebbington said:
to expect beginners to join a camera club on the basis of what they can contribute is simply not realistic.

Regards,

David

But it is, even if it is not rushing off as soon as the last picture is taken down, but staying and helping to clear-up. That's when people have time to talk and get to know you.

jamnut · Jul 9, 2005

Ow! Make it stop!

Have a look at my local "camera club" gallery. These people have something to teach all of us; it's up to you to decide what.

http://www.imageination.com/picc/gallery.htm

Thanks, all.

jjstafford · Jul 9, 2005

jamnut said:
Have a look at my local "camera club" gallery. These people have something to teach all of us; it's up to you to decide what.

http://www.imageination.com/picc/gallery.htm

Thanks, all.

It is clear that they are unified in one esthetic. It's almost as if one person made all the pictures. Is there an indoctrination regime for membership?

BruceN · Jul 9, 2005

jamnut said:
Have a look at my local "camera club" gallery. These people have something to teach all of us; it's up to you to decide what.

http://www.imageination.com/picc/gallery.htm

Thanks, all.

No offense, but it looks to me like they're trying to teach me projectile vomiting.

Sorry - too early on a Saturday and only one cup of coffee so far...

Bruce

David H. Bebbington · Jul 9, 2005

jamnut said:
Have a look at my local "camera club" gallery. These people have something to teach all of us; it's up to you to decide what.

My response is not as extreme as the preceding ones, but it does look like the "Photoshop Filters Appreciation Group!"

Ed Sukach · Jul 9, 2005

jamnut said:
Have a look at my local "camera club" gallery. These people have something to teach all of us; it's up to you to decide what.

Certianly there is some good, well-crafted work here. I don't think that the body of work is as monolithic as that I've seen in some clubs and their exhibitions. However -
A comment or two: The overall tendency seems to be toward highly saturated color (nearly poster paint-like), and high contrast black and white .. and I did notice the complete absence of my area of fascination - "Life" studies (yeh, yeh .. PC "nekkid").

I no longer belong to any Camera Club ... somewhere, many moons ago, I came to the conclusion that the "teaching" that occurred in those clubs was not done to expand my consciousness and increase my appreciation of other's work, but to restrict and LIMIT my range of interests, so that they conformed more closely to the norms of the clubs.

"They have much to teach" .. true, but I really did not attend those clubs to "be taught". I learned much, but no more than I have by visiting Galleries, and talking - schmoozing - with the photographers exhibiting. I certainly LEARN, but it is not by "being taught" - it is much more of an "assimilation" process.

Join a club for what I (we) can get out of it? Certainly, but that does not preclude not doing anything in return. The question becomes, "What do I get back for what I put in?" There has to be some sort of "balance" between the two or or the member will at some point realize that their membership does not make sense, and will not continue.

I've said it before .. When I find a Camera Club that does not have as its de facto theme, "My Camera is Better Then Your Camera", and "My Work Is Better Than Your Work ... Because It IS", - I'll join.

I am mulling the idea of "Learning by Competition" - But do we? Is that the most efficient way to learn"?
The competition is the "final test" - (what is being tested is open to debate) -- but the LEARNING happens in practice ... by doing over and over again, with or - usually - without instruction.

The weird and wonderful world of the camera club

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