The Truth About Shutter Life?

snegron · Oct 22, 2006

There are many articles and opinions posted in forums, books, and magazines about the life or duration of shutter mechanisms. I have read serveral articles about Nikon rating its F series of cameras at 150,000 shutter actuations while the non F series is rated at much less. I currently still own cameras I purchased over 20 years ago and I don't see anything wrong with their shutters. Yes, other parts show signs of wear, like loose hot shoes, inoperative meters, LCD bleed, etc. However, none of them have been to the shop for shutter replacement.

I am curious to know if anyone out there has had a shutter actually replaced due to wear or old age. When a Nikon F series shutter reaches 150,000 clicks, does it self destruct? Does it stop working? How would anyone even know how many times a shutter has been activated? Unlike DSLR's, there is no internal counting mechanism in film SLR's that I am aware of.

Markok765 · Oct 22, 2006

Most shutters are conservitivly rated. it usually would work longer than the rated #.

Ole · Oct 22, 2006

Let's see...

150000 exposures, that's almost 4170 36-exposure rolls.

If you shoot one roll per day, you get almost 12 years of service out of that.

It used to be only press photographers who shot 12 rolls a day and used up a camera per year - "normal people" never needed to worry about shutter life.

DSLR users, however, seem to believe that lots of quantity leads to quality. I know people who shoot 2000 exposures over a weekend in the hope that one of them will be perfect. If they get 50 of those weekends in a year, that's 100000 exposures in a year and only 1 1/2 years of expected shutter life. Doubtless they spend the rest of the time hunched over the computer, worrying about disk crash, and wondering why their pictures are less than perfect...

snegron · Oct 22, 2006

Ole said:
Let's see...

150000 exposures, that's almost 4170 36-exposure rolls.

If you shoot one roll per day, you get almost 12 years of service out of that.

It used to be only press photographers who shot 12 rolls a day and used up a camera per year - "normal people" never needed to worry about shutter life.

DSLR users, however, seem to believe that lots of quantity leads to quality. I know people who shoot 2000 exposures over a weekend in the hope that one of them will be perfect. If they get 50 of those weekends in a year, that's 100000 exposures in a year and only 1 1/2 years of expected shutter life. Doubtless they spend the rest of the time hunched over the computer, worrying about disk crash, and wondering why their pictures are less than perfect...

Would this include weekend shoots as well?

My personal experiences, as well as knowing others who own F series cameras, is that they hold up really well. An old F3 I purchased used from a press photographer over 20 years ago is still alive and clicking. I gave it extensive use in the early and mid 80's. It has been dropped and thrown around more than any camera I know. About 12 years ago I gave it to my dad for him to play around with it. He moved several times, lost it, then found it again recently. He had no use for it, so he gave it back to me. I stuck some batteries in it and the meter works well! The gears are shot on the rewind crank and it locks up with an MD4 attatched (when you manually advance film, it does not spring back. You have to flip the film advance lever yourself). The funny thing is that when you shake the camera it works well. If there was a contest for the ugliest camera I would take first place with this F3! But, the shutter still works!

JohnArs · Oct 22, 2006

Not only press photographers take many shoots!
If read an article on a studio F5 which got serviced from Nikon and this F5 had a bit over 1'000'000 klicks behind!

snegron · Oct 22, 2006

JohnArs said:
Not only press photographers take many shoots!
If read an article on a studio F5 which got serviced from Nikon and this F5 had a bit over 1'000'000 klicks behind!

I would be curious to know how they determined the the number of shutter clicks on that F5. Does the article mention if it was sent to Nikon for shutter issues or something else?

JohnArs · Oct 23, 2006

Hi Snegron
The Nikon is a high end machine and Nikon Service can put it onto a computer and get the dates from the camera!
As today with many cars with computer aided guidlines for repair!
And no the F5 was just for servicing and not because of shutter problems!

JBrunner · Oct 23, 2006

snegron said:
When a Nikon F series shutter reaches 150,000 clicks, does it self destruct?

The # of cycles is an estimate. A small percentage will fail before the 150,000, a larger percentage will fail after. The ratings are conservative, Ole's right, this subject was rarely broached befor DSLR's and the spray and pray approach engendered.

Not all cameras are created equal btw, the Canon Rebel series is rated only to 50,000 clicks. Replacing a shutter is about $150-$250 in the US currently.

Chan Tran · Oct 23, 2006

snegron said:
I would be curious to know how they determined the the number of shutter clicks on that F5. Does the article mention if it was sent to Nikon for shutter issues or something else?

I have researched and found that I can not get the shutter count from the F5 myself. However, I strongly believe that Nikon can get the shutter count from the F5 by simply connecting it to a computer with a serial port and the right kind of software. I believe also that they can do meter and some shutter calibration via this connection.
So I believe that most of us do have the hardware to get these kind of information but anyone out there know the protocol and the command sets to do this?

Mike Kovacs · Oct 23, 2006

The F5 does record the number of shutter actuations. It also monitors its performance and responds by self-adjusting its timing.

snegron · Oct 23, 2006

Mike Kovacs said:
The F5 does record the number of shutter actuations. It also monitors its performance and responds by self-adjusting its timing.

I wonder if I were to send an F5 to Nikon, would they tell me how many shutter actuations it has?

copake_ham · Oct 23, 2006

JBrunner said:
The # of cycles is an estimate. A small percentage will fail before the 150,000, a larger percentage will fail after. The ratings are conservative, Ole's right, this subject was rarely broached befor DSLR's and the spray and pray approach engendered.

Not all cameras are created equal btw, the Canon Rebel series is rated only to 50,000 clicks. Replacing a shutter is about $150-$250 in the US currently.

In all frankness, I don't think the digi crowd would worry at all about shutter life. They are primarily interested in successful shutter iterations prior to necessary upgrade due to generational shifts.

With digitals the body durability/robustness is much different than with film gear.

So long as the mechanics equal or surpass the total software upgradable capability of the camera then it is okay. For example, dead pixel counts on the sensor are more of a concern than possible mechanical shutter failure!

In fact, within the digi photog world, I think EVF's will replace DSLR's totally and "shutter" longevity will no longer be a critical factor determining body life.

It is likely that the pro digi world will get to the point of near "throw away" bodies and lens quality will be the only remaining "critical" factor to imaging.

JBrunner · Oct 23, 2006

copake_ham said:
In all frankness, I don't think the digi crowd would worry at all about shutter life.

Actually, its a pretty hot topic with them, as some of the more snappy of them are wearing out low end shutters in as little as six months.

naturephoto1 · Oct 23, 2006

JBrunner said:
Actually, its a pretty hot topic with them, as some of the more snappy of them are wearing out low end shutters in as little as six months.

Hi Jason,

If that is the case, does the shutter fall under the warranty and how long are the warranties on these cameras?

Rich

JBrunner · Oct 23, 2006

Most of the time they report warranty service, however in one report a dealer tried not to honor the repair, claiming "excess use amounted to abuse"

I believe most reputable dealers simply send the camera to the manufacture for warranty service. To my knowledge cameras are warranted for a period of time, and not for a certain amount of operations (mileage, if you will) although I have not researched this.

My D*thingy has in excess of 90K shutter actuations in about two years. This is because I use it to create motion timelapse footage, not as a result of photo carnage. Its bolted to a rafter at a convention hall at this very moment, and will have clocked up another 600 frames or so today.

snegron · Oct 23, 2006

copake_ham said:
In all frankness, I don't think the digi crowd would worry at all about shutter life. They are primarily interested in successful shutter iterations prior to necessary upgrade due to generational shifts.

With digitals the body durability/robustness is much different than with film gear.

So long as the mechanics equal or surpass the total software upgradable capability of the camera then it is okay. For example, dead pixel counts on the sensor are more of a concern than possible mechanical shutter failure!

In fact, within the digi photog world, I think EVF's will replace DSLR's totally and "shutter" longevity will no longer be a critical factor determining body life.

It is likely that the pro digi world will get to the point of near "throw away" bodies and lens quality will be the only remaining "critical" factor to imaging.

I agree somewhat, however I may be the exception. In addition to my Nikon and Mamiya film equipment, I also own several DSLR's. The build quality of my Nikon D1X bodies is outstanding. It is basically a digital version of an F5. I have owned about 5 D70's so far and they felt plasticy. I tore up the first three D70's in under a year. My D1X's are just as solid as my Nikon film cameras. Again with the DSLR's, I believe that there are plenty of things to go wrong way before their shutters fail. I wonder if camera manufacturers use the alleged shutter life measurements to place a camera within a certain sales category?

John Koehrer · Oct 23, 2006

I find it much quicker to push my thumb through the shutter than to count the frames.

copake_ham · Oct 23, 2006

My point is simply that "shutter failure" is incidental at best with digital gear.

As Snegron notes, the earlier Nikon dSLRs still adhered to the concept of "robust" bodies - and they remain relatively better-built than say the prosumer gear such as the digi Coolpix's.

Obviously, any shutter that fails in 6-months is an abberation and covered under the warranty.

I understand that the digi camera "generation" cycle is 18-months or so - it is difficult to imagine that the manufacturers would be unable to make a shutter mechanism that would fail in this period unless it was subjected to abuse (or, if manufactured in Detroit, was made on a Monday).

This entire concept of digital is to sell you the upgrade before it mechanically fails because it is, by then, already technologically obsolete.

Finally, I would not confuse actual body mass (e.g. the F5) with "robustness" (i.e. vs. the D-70). The former requires more "mass" to protect the film winding/rewinding mechanism etc. which the latter does not require.

I'm not arguing in favor of digi gear - just that the parameters are vastly different. Fifty years from now, few if any, will "tout" that they have a fully functioning D-200 as opposed to how today there are those who proudly boast about the total functionality of their original SP or F!

JBrunner · Oct 24, 2006

I am certainly not a digi proponent, and anybody here who's been here knows I knock it at any chance. That said, I expect a $7500 DSLR body such as the one I use to have a reasonable service life (200K clicks). I think most people in my shoes expect the same. That's a bit different than the $500 one, you do get what you pay for, even in D*weenie world. A simple google on "300d shutter failure"(9,330 hits) or "Rebel shutter failure" (66,800 hits) will reveal the howling. These people don't view their low end digigizmos as disposable. (Even though we might) The same shutter mechanism designs and materials are used in film SLR's and they vary in quality with price as well. It just wasn't much of an issue because few people shot 50,000 shots in periods of time that could be measured in seasons. Anyway this is more and more becoming about D*stuff and so I think I'll leave it at this point. Best to all.

JBrunner · Oct 24, 2006

John Koehrer said:
I find it much quicker to push my thumb through the shutter than to count the frames.

LOL Honestly a solution that escaped me... until now....

Woolliscroft · Oct 24, 2006

I wouldn't worry. I have never managed to wear out a shutter. I still use a 1933 Leica IIIa and a 1980 OM-2. The latter is still in daily use, often with a power winder and works perfectly. I hate to think how many pictures it has taken.

David.

Xmas · Oct 24, 2006

The Leitz rubber cloth shutters can fail with time, the ribbon snaps, typically they last 30 plus years. The ones that have failed for me have been 1st frame runs 2nd frame fails, as you can hear the failure, it is a sinking feeling if it was a good shot, been lucky twice so far, both bad shots (hey but I'm a cr1p photog).

My '79 OM-1 occassionally fails to do a slow speed but it is spot on for time the second shot. The fix is easy, but shooting a precursor frame is simpler than lifting the bottom plate in the mirror box.

Noel

snegron · Oct 24, 2006

Woolliscroft said:
I wouldn't worry. I have never managed to wear out a shutter. I still use a 1933 Leica IIIa and a 1980 OM-2. The latter is still in daily use, often with a power winder and works perfectly. I hate to think how many pictures it has taken.

David.

This brings me to my next question: Will a shutter wear out quicker with a power winder or not? Will using the film advance lever actually prolong shutter life as opposed to the use of a motor drive?

copake_ham · Oct 24, 2006

snegron said:
This brings me to my next question: Will a shutter wear out quicker with a power winder or not? Will using the film advance lever actually prolong shutter life as opposed to the use of a motor drive?

I'm not sure of the relationship of the film advance to the shutter other than that on a manual camera, the shutter button is usually placed inside the "ring" of the film advance lever.

Also, you question is only relevant to manual cameras that offer the option of adding a motor drive (e.g. my Nikon F3). My F5 and F100 do not have manual film advance lever at all - so what would be the relationship?

snegron · Oct 24, 2006

copake_ham said:
I'm not sure of the relationship of the film advance to the shutter other than that on a manual camera, the shutter button is usually placed inside the "ring" of the film advance lever.

Also, you question is only relevant to manual cameras that offer the option of adding a motor drive (e.g. my Nikon F3). My F5 and F100 do not have manual film advance lever at all - so what would be the relationship?

I thought that the F3 had the shutter and film advance tied into one quartz mechanism?

I have heard many different opinions as to the stress placed on camera film advance gears and shutters when using motor winders. Yes, I am refering to the pre-F5 series of cameras (the F, F2, F3, F4, FM/FE series, FA, FG, etc) which required a motor drive for automated film advance.

Newer autofocus models have an internal motor drive. The question is still relevant especially when comparing shutter life between cameras with manual film advance and cameras with automated film advance. Is there more or less stress on a shutter when using an automated film advance mechanism (think of 3 or 4 frames per second), or when using the old film crank lever at a much slower pace?

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