The Taming of the Retro 80S

Pixophrenic · Oct 5, 2017

destroya said:
I use RR80s and 400s/superpan as my main 35mm films and while they may have more contrast than most films, it is very much an everyday pictorial film in my mind.

for the 80s I use 3 developers depending oon the scene shot. for a normal well balanced light scene I use pyro-mc which keeps my highlights in check nicely. I shoot the film at 50 when I use pyro-mc

if there is a little more contrast in the scene than I like, or Im looking for a little compensation I use beutler. the nice thing is it gives me a true 80 speed on the film. wheat i see in this developer is it really reduces the contrast fotr the film and a flat light scene can look very flat if I use this developer. But man does it give real sharp crisp negs.
Very seldom used, but handy if i have a roll with many different shots in different lighting conditions, I will use a stand 1+200 in rodinal for a hour, with agitation at 30 min. I hate stand development, but for some reason, for me, the only film that has ever worked that way was rr80s. for me i use this maybe for 5 rolls a year, so its really only an emergency issue.

when dialed in this film gives fabulous results. I have many 11x14 inch prints from 35mm negs that look like they came from a 645 neg. sharp, great tonality, grain that is hardly noticable and when it is adds to the imgage, does not detract from it. It just took me a few months to get a handle on this film. just keep at it.

oh, I find that for the 400s/superpan XTOL replenished works real well with that film

Thank you, this is obviously a viable option, because I am thinking along the lines of making POTA-like developer than can be "spiced" with a variable amount of hydroquinone, depending on the scene shot. Your use of stand development with Rodinal appears to be also in line that this film really does not benefit from agitation, as I said above. I did try Beutler, in a normal way and split, and found it too contrasty for my taste, although with a certain kind of soft light it may work.

Pixophrenic · Oct 5, 2017

trendland said:
Part II " The Chance "

......more than a decade ago some people
has to realize : The good old times came to an end.
One can not say if your favourite film is also avaible in 1 year, if it is - one can not say to what price it is avaible.
But what one can say for sure : Many films you normaly get everywhere you can buy nowere in the next future.
And films you can buy could have every price you can not imagine at this time.
I decided this in the beginng of digital
and so it happened.
This is in regard of everything you don't need also with digital equipment.
What is to do ? My decition (years ago)
If I don't like digital and I want to shoot I have to buy everything I will need in the
next ...... whow how long ?????
Consequentely in the next 15 years ?
No of cause in the next 15 - 20, may be 25 years!!!
And it is smart to buy some stuff in little
bigger amounts to avoid the day when you realize to buy it in addition years later to 2x , 3x, 5x higher pricing.
If I like a film today (wich is still not on my list) I will definitifly know what is about this emulsion.
Because I decide to buy min. 50 - 100 films.Also in 100 ? If I decide so - I have to double it (min. 100 films max. 200 films)
AND THEN THE PRICE IS FROM ABSOLUT INTERESST.

with regard

PS : Retro 80S is definitifly on my list.

Well, you said it, once you know you can handle a film and like it, it is probably the time to buy it in bulk. BTW, do you happen to be the owner/creator of the http://caffenol.blogspot.ca/?

trendland · Oct 5, 2017

Pixophrenic said:
Well, you said it, once you know you can handle a film and like it, it is probably the time to buy it in bulk. BTW, do you happen to be the owner/creator of the http://caffenol.blogspot.ca/?

Sorry to say but I am not the best friend of caffenol developers so it can't be me.
If I'd like to be a creator of a blog it would be possible a category of
www.verynicelook@tumblr.com with topics to neofin blue, and other beutler
formulations.

with regards

trendland · Oct 5, 2017

trendland said:
Sorry to say but I am not the best friend of caffenol developers so it can't be me.
If I'd like to be a creator of a blog it would be possible a category of
www.verynicelook@tumblr.com with topics to neofin blue, and other beutler
formulations.

with regards

May be topics on beutler & Co. I'd like
to create as category of verynicelook@tumblr (without www)

with regards

Alan Johnson · Oct 5, 2017

Here is Tom Hoskinson's long lasting version of H&W Control that was on here but the link is now broken:

Solution A
Triethanolamine...................75ml
Hydroquinone......................0.32g
Phenidone............................2.2g
Triethanolamine to................100ml

Phenidone and Hydroquinone are soluble in TEA.
Warm the Triathanolamine to 80 to 100 F in a water bath.
Then mix the chemicals in the order shown, and be sure each is completely dissolved before adding the next.

Solution B
Water....................................750ml
Sodium Sulfite.......................4.5g
Sodium Carbonate................2.3g
Water to.................................1 liter

Add 25ml Solution A to 250ml Solution B, then add water to make 1 liter of working solution.

I used this for microfilm types a few years back, .It gives higher EI than POTA but not as high as the Spur developers.

Murray Kelly · Oct 5, 2017

Pixophrenic said:
On a second thought, this combination makes sense. Was it inspired by the now extinct developing agent meritol? Also, next time you do it, could you also measure the pH of the developer after it was used? Second, while you are in France, I would like to ask you a question related to Jean Fage's developer, and I'd rather do it directly.

Pixophrenic, again I am sorry for the slow reply. Same excuse. I am sharing this with teenagers using net-flix.
I read about Meritol (PPD +?) but this image was before I'd heard of it.
The pH did not change with the Rodinal/Hc-110 mix after use.
Thanks for the reference to Jean Fage - completely new to me - my first reaction was D-23 then a P~Q to follow. Not the same as but reminiscent of Thornton's advice to get a lower contrast.
Thanks again.

Pixophrenic · Oct 5, 2017

trendland said:
May be topics on beutler & Co. I'd like
to create as category of verynicelook@tumblr (without www)

with regards

Alan Johnson said:
Here is Tom Hoskinson's long lasting version of H&W Control that was on here but the link is now broken:

Solution A
Triethanolamine...................75ml
Hydroquinone......................0.32g
Phenidone............................2.2g
Triethanolamine to................100ml

Phenidone and Hydroquinone are soluble in TEA.
Warm the Triathanolamine to 80 to 100 F in a water bath.
Then mix the chemicals in the order shown, and be sure each is completely dissolved before adding the next.

Solution B
Water....................................750ml
Sodium Sulfite.......................4.5g
Sodium Carbonate................2.3g
Water to.................................1 liter

Add 25ml Solution A to 250ml Solution B, then add water to make 1 liter of working solution.

I used this for microfilm types a few years back, .It gives higher EI than POTA but not as high as the Spur developers.

Thank you very much, Alan. I was thinking along the lines of 3 solutions, phenidone separately, hydroquinone with bisulfite, and carbonate. This saves me quite some time.

Murray Kelly · Oct 5, 2017

I should have added that both developers are highly diluted a la Beutler. That makes a big difference.

Pixophrenic · Oct 21, 2017

Alan Johnson said:
Here is Tom Hoskinson's long lasting version of H&W Control that was on here but the link is now broken:

Solution A
Triethanolamine...................75ml
Hydroquinone......................0.32g
Phenidone............................2.2g
Triethanolamine to................100ml

Phenidone and Hydroquinone are soluble in TEA.
Warm the Triathanolamine to 80 to 100 F in a water bath.
Then mix the chemicals in the order shown, and be sure each is completely dissolved before adding the next.

Solution B
Water....................................750ml
Sodium Sulfite.......................4.5g
Sodium Carbonate................2.3g
Water to.................................1 liter

Add 25ml Solution A to 250ml Solution B, then add water to make 1 liter of working solution.

I used this for microfilm types a few years back, .It gives higher EI than POTA but not as high as the Spur developers.

Alan, When you posted the formula above, I did not take a close look and now that I decided to try it, it looks peculiar. Besides, I am wondering what your development time and temperature would have been. The peculiarity of this formula as compared to the formula posted here by Gerald Koch in a related thread (and that I tested to work with several films) is that when I recalculate the working concentrations, it appears that in TEA-based solution A, which is 40X concentrated, the PQ ratio is the same (6.88), however, the working concentrations of phenidone and HQ are exactly 10X less than in the one posted by Gerald. Also, the concentrations in solution B, which is 4X concentrated, are 4X <less> than in the link I posted, so it is actually not a concentrate. A solution with strength approximating the H&W Control as posted by Gerald would be obtained when 250 ml of TEA solution A is mixed with 750 ml of solution B. This would give 25% final TEA concentration, which is alkaline enough (10% TEA has a pH of 10.6, according to Jacobsons) and sodium carbonate would have been superfluos. However, in the way that you presented it,the development time should be rather long, and it may still work as expected (soft). Do I miss something here? It appears that Hoskins may have experimented with dilutions of H&W Control as a starting point, but have arrived at what appears a different recipe. Could you tell me where you copied this formula from? Thank you.

Alan Johnson · Oct 21, 2017

http://www.frugalphotographer.com/info-formulary-general.htm
The formula I gave in post 30 is a correct copy of what Tom wrote and is what I used.
I have a print out of a deleted thread.
The working solution concentrations of phenidone and hydroquinone in the linked H&W Control and in Tom's TEA version are closely identical.
Tom seems to have cut down the carbonate and sulfite but TEA is alkaline and a silver solvent IIRC.
My times in the post 30 working solution at 20C:
Rollei ATP-1 EI 25 10min, Copex Rapid EI 25 12 min, CMS 20 EI 12 9min.
The pH of the working solution ~9.5.

Pixophrenic · Oct 21, 2017

Alan Johnson said:
http://www.frugalphotographer.com/info-formulary-general.htm
The formula I gave in post 30 is a correct copy of what Tom wrote and is what I used.
I have a print out of a deleted thread.
The working solution concentrations of phenidone and hydroquinone in the linked H&W Control and in Tom's TEA version are closely identical.
Tom seems to have cut down the carbonate and sulfite but TEA is alkaline and a silver solvent IIRC.
My times in the post 30 working solution at 20C:
Rollei ATP-1 EI 25 10min, Copex Rapid EI 25 12 min, CMS 20 EI 12 9min.
The pH of the working solution ~9.5.

Thank you very much, Alan. I see now where I goofed, I did not notice that the TEA part is for 100 ml, so the concentration should be multiplied by 10. The link is also very useful, its text explains why it is no surprise that a repackaged former surveillance film Aviphot aka Rollei Retro 80S behaves so well in H&W Control. The pH of this developer, however, is somewhat of a mystery to me, as it is supposed to be 10.4 or above for maximum "subadditivity" of phenidone. Presumbaly this was explained somewhere in Grafkides' book, but I do not have it on hand.

anfenglin · Oct 22, 2017

Well, I really like it in Caffenol-C-H (rs).
Rodinal 1+50 also worked well me thinks.

dark days ahead by 安峰林, auf Flickr

A Diamant in the rough by 安峰林, auf Flickr

Pixophrenic · Oct 22, 2017

anfenglin said:
Well, I really like it in Caffenol-C-H (rs).
Rodinal 1+50 also worked well me thinks.

dark days ahead by 安峰林, auf Flickr

A Diamant in the rough by 安峰林, auf Flickr

I have similar observations. In my case it is Caffenol C-L and Rodinal 1:100, both in stand devt for 30 min. But H&W Control seems better, perhaps it is subjective.

Murray Kelly · Oct 23, 2017

Dark Days is entrancing. Full marks. But I do have to ask if the inherent contrast of the film enhances the brooding sky or even makes it such. The second one, tho mundane, is a much better example of the film when under control.by suitable developers. Not being picky, merely saying that if my whole roll turned out like 'Diamant' I would be well pleased.

anfenglin said:
Well, I really like it in Caffenol-C-H (rs).
Rodinal 1+50 also worked well me thinks.

dark days ahead by 安峰林, auf Flickr

A Diamant in the rough by 安峰林, auf Flickr

trendland · Oct 23, 2017

anfenglin said:
Well, I really like it in Caffenol-C-H (rs).
Rodinal 1+50 also worked well me thinks.

dark days ahead by 安峰林, auf Flickr

A Diamant in the rough by 安峰林, auf Flickr

Yes - realy nice shots.
But I would use Retro80s in two directions.Because there is a niche Witz a wide spred of other emulsions.
1) as IR Film
2) as High Resolution film

therfore - to me Rodinal is not the best developer.

Notice : In both cases ( IR and HR use )
E.I. ISO 40 is recomanded.
AND don't forget witch some metol based developers you probably will lost
1 stop.
So you should use this film as a ISO 20 film - but with doing this you get real
"High Resolution"

with regards

anfenglin · Oct 26, 2017

Well, the Retro 80s with its extended red sensibility is especially suited for taking it out without filters, yellow especially, so naturally, skies and such are the ideal sujet for it I think.
Then, when scanning or printing, one can just push the contrast up a litte and voilá: dramatic skies.
Since I use a great variety of films I almost always use Caffenol, I only found one film to this day that does not work in it, and that is Foma Retropan 320.
Massive grain!

The Taming of the Retro 80S

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