The story continues: getting 4x5 developing right

timeUnit · Nov 20, 2006

New try, new troubles...

I just developed four sheets of ILFORD HP5+, exposed at EI 250 in strobe lighting.

Rodinal 1+50, Combi-Plan tank, initial agitation 15 sec, then minimal agitation 5 sec / 5 min. Total devtime 14 minutes. Water stop bath, fix in Hypam 1+4 5 minutes, wash, HCA, Ilford wash sequence and a final wash with a few drops of wetting agent. Pretty standard for me nowadays. My 120-negs come out fine using this technique.

I got some pretty bad streaking. It looks like the developer has been "running" down some parts of the sheet. To be exact: it has been running down from low density areas (black on print) into medium and high density areas making these areas more dense. It's kinda cool, but not what I was looking for. The streaks are from top to bottom.

The edge effects are there, but exaggerated. Looks like a very unsharp mask.

It would be great to have some input on these ideas:

1) Agitate more vigrously. I'm hesitant to do this as I might dislodge the sheets from the holder, creating a nice mess.
2) Agitate more frequently. I'm thinking maybe 15 sec / 3 minutes. Also increase initial agitation to 30 sec.

Thanks for your advice.

I'm having so many issues with LF developing now that I'm not dissapointed anymore. It's more like a LF-sitcom.

I will get this right. It's just a matter of time...

karavelov · Nov 20, 2006

I would try more diluted developer, 1+100 for example, or more frequent agitation. More diluted developer helps with the bromide drag but adds more edge effects. More agitation fights the bromide drag and the exaggerated edge effects.

Best regards
luben

noseoil · Nov 20, 2006

Usually with uneven development in sheet film and long development times, the initial agitation is to blame. My suggestions are:

1 - Pre-soak film in water for a few minutes first (add 30 seconds to you time to compensate for this wetting if you don't already). Then add developer.

2 - Initial agitation must be done in a manner which allows the film to take up developer evenly. Pour the developer as rapidly as possible so film is soaking it up, all at the same time. Remember, there are three axes of rotation to agitate in (roll, pitch and yaw).

3 - I haven't used this type of tank, but now use development tubes. They are made out of 1 1/2" black plastic plumbing drain line (ABS plastic).

Good luck, tim

timeUnit · Nov 20, 2006

I will try a presoak, longer init agitation, and a little more frequent agitation.

One problem with the combi-plan tank is that you can't agitatate in the wrong direction, as it will dislodge the sheets. It has to be parallel to the film surface. I'll try to be a bit more forceful though.

hka · Nov 21, 2006

timeUnit said:
I will try a presoak, longer init agitation, and a little more frequent agitation.

One problem with the combi-plan tank is that you can't agitatate in the wrong direction, as it will dislodge the sheets. It has to be parallel to the film surface. I'll try to be a bit more forceful though.

If the sheets are dislodged while develop then you are missing a part of the tank namely the film retaining clip (part.no. 459417) that has to be slipped on, after inserting the filmsheets, at te top of the negative carrier.

timeUnit · Nov 21, 2006

hka said:
If the sheets are dislodged while develop then you are missing a part of the tank namely the film retaining clip (part.no. 459417) that has to be slipped on, after inserting the filmsheets, at te top of the negative carrier.

No, not that way.

If you agitate perpendicular to the film sheet surface there is risk that the force on the sheets becomes so big as to dislodge them from the grooves in the holder. I've done this a few times. Now I only agitate in a manner parallel to the sheet surface.

hka · Nov 21, 2006

I have had never any problem with it.

timeUnit · Nov 21, 2006

How good for you!

gainer · Nov 21, 2006

The streaking, of course, is due to difference of densities between fresh and oxidized developer. It doesn't even help to develop in a tray with negatives flat, even with emulsion side down. It is an effect like trying to pour from a wide mouth container, when the liquid runs down the side of the container instead of separating at the lip. This effect is influenced by surface tension. Extreme dilution helps by making the differences in bromide content, specific gravity and surface tension smaller. Development time will necessarilly be very long.

timeUnit · Nov 23, 2006

Ha!

I think I'm getting there!

I now use a presoak for 2,5 minutes including fill/drain.

1 minute init. agitation.

20 sec agitation / 3 minutes. (I might lower to 10 sec / 3 minutes, for more edge effects.)

14 minutes total time at EI 400. I'm maybe not really getting that EI, but these were city night shots, and my L558 light meter doesn't spot meter at night anyway, so all exposures are guesstimates.

Anyway: the negs now look pretty darn good! I'm sure I'll mess something up again later on, but for now: YES!!!

noseoil · Nov 23, 2006

If you're not in a big hurry, give the 1:100 dilution a try also. It will make development times longer and may show more grain than you like (depends on the scene, light, textures, etc.etc.etc.) but unless you're printing very large, it should work out well. Nice benefit is the addition of edge effects between light and dark areas and enhanced contrast in shadow values. Best, tim

eddie gunks · Nov 23, 2006

timeUnit said:
Anyway: the negs now look pretty darn good! I'm sure I'll mess something up again later on, but for now: YES!!!

great! good work with the negs. i know the feeling of getting it right after all the trials. i was having my own difficulties with sheet film. i basically use a doran tank (similiar to the yankee) and i basically shook it up pretty well to determine the "over agitation point) so i got a feel how hard i could shake it......it takes some serious agitation to break em loose.

have fun

eddie

MartinB · Nov 23, 2006

Timeunit,
I have been experimenting with minimal agitation/high dilution development Combi Plan/4x5 HP5/Rodinal.
I don't presoak and only agitate 3 times (60-90 sec at beginning of development, 30 sec at the 1/3 & 2/3 dev time)
1:100 is around 25-30 min and 1:150 around 35-45 min although I need to check my notes.

I load the film into the film holder, pop the film holder into the tank that already contains the developer, put the tank lid on and start agitation. With long development times, precision in starting the timer is not needed. A couple of minutes either way on a 30 dev time does not affect development enough to matter.
I have not had any streaks on the negatives.

(I did have problems with sheets dislodged from the grooves in the combi plan holder until I found a more gentle agitation method - yes the film holders clip was in place)

vet173 · Nov 24, 2006

Did you catch the part where martin puts the film in the container with the developer ALREADY in it?

timeUnit · Nov 24, 2006

vet173 said:
Did you catch the part where martin puts the film in the container with the developer ALREADY in it?

Yes.

timeUnit · Nov 24, 2006

MartinB said:
Timeunit,
I have been experimenting with minimal agitation/high dilution development Combi Plan/4x5 HP5/Rodinal.
I don't presoak and only agitate 3 times (60-90 sec at beginning of development, 30 sec at the 1/3 & 2/3 dev time)
1:100 is around 25-30 min and 1:150 around 35-45 min although I need to check my notes.

I load the film into the film holder, pop the film holder into the tank that already contains the developer, put the tank lid on and start agitation. With long development times, precision in starting the timer is not needed. A couple of minutes either way on a 30 dev time does not affect development enough to matter.
I have not had any streaks on the negatives.

(I did have problems with sheets dislodged from the grooves in the combi plan holder until I found a more gentle agitation method - yes the film holders clip was in place)

I might try this sometime. Gerally though, semi-stand development takes a bit too long for me (I'm impatient).

*h

The story continues: getting 4x5 developing right

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