The size of the grain in the print

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Prest_400

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How timely Darko. Are you thinking about "normal" or Lith printing?
I have yet to try Lith printing, but have read extensively as many resources as possible and our camera club sits on lots of old paper that should be lithable. Lith printing works by "infectious development" through highly diluted (oxidising?) Hydroquinone developer. This mechanism is different from normal development. Grain size will depend on the paper emulsion and the stage of development where it's "snatched".
 
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darkosaric

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I don't know :smile:, Youtube suggested me video above. I did Lith many times in the past, but never thought about the grain size on the paper itself, somehow I was thinking grain size in the paper / print is constant, that you cannot influence that. So this is only in the Lith printing - the print grain size can be adjusted?
 

Ian Grant

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A correction Lith printing depends on over exposure and under-development in the highlights and infectious development suddenly taking place in the shadows giving the split effect.

Warm tone papers and developers use grain size to control the tonal colour, longer exposures and shorter development times or more dilute developer increase warmth. Doesn't work with Cold/Normal tone papers.

Ian
 

M Carter

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I do like 90% lith printing; the choice of paper and how you develop can have a big impact on grain. These were both fine-grained Acros negs (6x6 and 6x7), but I made them more gritty via lith - the 2nd shot has an almost charcol-sketch look, but it was actually a smooth/soft pinhole image:

SSbVE2J.jpg


i1NLPUO.jpg
 

MattKing

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If you bleach prints with a re-halogenating bleach and then re-develop them, you may end up changing the halogen - say from silver chloride to silver bromide - and by doing so change the grain and image colour in the print.
Or, if you are dealing with a process like bleach and re-develop lith printing, you may change how the image clumps appear, which probably would better be described as changing the clumping, rather than changing the grain, but I doubt anybody uses that terminology.
 

koraks

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he says you can change the size of the grain in the print?
Yes. But 'grain' in the context of a (lith) print is maybe a little confusing. Any B&W emulsion is essentially tiny particles of silver halide - these are the 'grains'. After all, they're just tiny morsels, specks tidbits...well, grains! Think of the order of magnitude of 10um or so - pretty darn tiny. Of course, if they're on your film, and you then enlarge the film, the grain becomes visible in the print as the coarse pattern we all know. But now we're talking about print grain, and that's still the same principle...but the effect is different.

In normal print development, we expose the print and then basically develop the heck out of it. Or, put more formally: we develop 'to completion' - i.e. until every little speck (grain) of silver halide that has had some light fall onto it is developed into a nice, little (tiny!) lump of silver. Again, the particle size is in the micrometer order of magnitude - for convenience's sake, let's stick with the 10um from above. Well, turns out that if you put a truckload of these tiny 10um silver particles right next to each other, it doesn't reflect much light anymore. In other words: it's pretty much black. For a normal print, that's what we want - if we put a lot of those grains side by side, it's black. If we allow a little more space between them, we can make shades of grey: just some tiny black specks with paper white in-between.

So what's the deal with 'varying the grain size' as is done in a lith print? It's very simple (in principle...): instead of developing the heck out of our print and allow all those exposed little specks to grow to their maximum 10um size, we develop them way less. We allow them to grow maybe 1um, or 5, or maybe 8. But not 10...expect maybe the ones in the deepest shadows, where we want some real black. What's the significance of this smaller particle size? Well, funny thing, but due to the fascinating laws of physics, tiny silver parts that are smaller than about 10um reflect some (or sometimes, a lot) of light. And not just random light, but specific wavelengths. That's right - they look colorful! The tiniest grains (around 1um as I recall) show up as yellow, if you allow them to grow just a little larger, they become reddish, and if you allow them to grow yet larger, they transition through brown towards black - and if you coax them to grow just a little bigger than they can on their own (i.e. by throwing some gold toner at them), they shift to a cold bluish tone.

Now, keep in mind we're still talking about grains less than 10um in size. Hence, you won't see individual grains with the naked eye, or even with a good magnifying glass. You can see them under a decent microscope, but your lith prints are never going to look grainy 'in the film sense' just because of these micrometer-sized grains. Yes, lith prints do look grainy (sometimes/often), but that's due to grain clumping, i.e. specks of grain 'infecting' others nearby in development (it's a little more complex than that, but the analogy kind of works). So the story about manipulating grain size is all about where the color of a lith print comes from. Coincidentally, it's essentially also (part of) the story about toning.
 

Dwayne Martin

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Yes. But 'grain' in the context of a (lith) print is maybe a little confusing. Any B&W emulsion is essentially tiny particles of silver halide - these are the 'grains'. After all, they're just tiny morsels, specks tidbits...well, grains! Think of the order of magnitude of 10um or so - pretty darn tiny. Of course, if they're on your film, and you then enlarge the film, the grain becomes visible in the print as the coarse pattern we all know. But now we're talking about print grain, and that's still the same principle...but the effect is different.

In normal print development, we expose the print and then basically develop the heck out of it. Or, put more formally: we develop 'to completion' - i.e. until every little speck (grain) of silver halide that has had some light fall onto it is developed into a nice, little (tiny!) lump of silver. Again, the particle size is in the micrometer order of magnitude - for convenience's sake, let's stick with the 10um from above. Well, turns out that if you put a truckload of these tiny 10um silver particles right next to each other, it doesn't reflect much light anymore. In other words: it's pretty much black. For a normal print, that's what we want - if we put a lot of those grains side by side, it's black. If we allow a little more space between them, we can make shades of grey: just some tiny black specks with paper white in-between.

So what's the deal with 'varying the grain size' as is done in a lith print? It's very simple (in principle...): instead of developing the heck out of our print and allow all those exposed little specks to grow to their maximum 10um size, we develop them way less. We allow them to grow maybe 1um, or 5, or maybe 8. But not 10...expect maybe the ones in the deepest shadows, where we want some real black. What's the significance of this smaller particle size? Well, funny thing, but due to the fascinating laws of physics, tiny silver parts that are smaller than about 10um reflect some (or sometimes, a lot) of light. And not just random light, but specific wavelengths. That's right - they look colorful! The tiniest grains (around 1um as I recall) show up as yellow, if you allow them to grow just a little larger, they become reddish, and if you allow them to grow yet larger, they transition through brown towards black - and if you coax them to grow just a little bigger than they can on their own (i.e. by throwing some gold toner at them), they shift to a cold bluish tone.

Now, keep in mind we're still talking about grains less than 10um in size. Hence, you won't see individual grains with the naked eye, or even with a good magnifying glass. You can see them under a decent microscope, but your lith prints are never going to look grainy 'in the film sense' just because of these micrometer-sized grains. Yes, lith prints do look grainy (sometimes/often), but that's due to grain clumping, i.e. specks of grain 'infecting' others nearby in development (it's a little more complex than that, but the analogy kind of works). So the story about manipulating grain size is all about where the color of a lith print comes from. Coincidentally, it's essentially also (part of) the story about toning.

This is by far the best explanation I’ve ever read ……
 

RalphLambrecht

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Not sure that I understood what Mr. Tim Rudman is talking about - not the size of the grain in the negative, he says you can change the size of the grain in the print?




Can someone elaborate this for me :smile:?
Thanks!


Oh no; Tim got this wrong;It's exactly the opposite:shadows are controlled by the exposure and highlights are controlled by development! How can he get this wrong? It's the basics of the Zone System.
 

cliveh

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I don't agree with Tim's analysis and think his steps are too simplistic. Is he talking about negatives or prints? If as I think he is talking about print exposure and development, which I think he is, this is very dependent on the negative, enlarger type, paper and developer. To name but a few, what about temperature, developer dilution and time?
 
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gone

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Would developing the print in hot water increase the grain size? Changing the print's size? That would be a simple experiment. I don't need any help making grain smaller or disappear though. From day one in the darkroom, the grain that looked so cool in a proof scan usually disappears in the print.
 

Pieter12

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Would developing the print in hot water increase the grain size? Changing the print's size? That would be a simple experiment. I don't need any help making grain smaller or disappear though. From day one in the darkroom, the grain that looked so cool in a proof scan usually disappears in the print.

Try a condenser enlarger and maybe a harder grade. An enlarger such as the Omega D can take a smaller halogen bulb that will also increase sharpness and grain, but you'll need a heat-absorbing glass and maye an ND filter.
 

Ian Grant

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The video is garbage. Rudman doesn't mention that the balance of the silver halides used in the paper's emulsion is critical to the warmth, or that warm tone papers are more flexible, colder tone bromide papers less flexible.

If you snatch or pull Bromide papers you get flat wishy washy grey tones, you control both shadows and highlights by a combination of exposure, contrast grade, dodging or shading, and if needed additional controls, flashing, two bath development, slit grade printing.

Yes you can control the image colour by using shorter development times, or more dilute developer, and a compensating increase in exposure, but again using similar controls (as above), and only with warm tone papers.

Exposing for the highlights and snatching to control the shadows is just extremely poor technique.

Ian
 

ic-racer

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This is a lith print from a 4x5 negative. All the grain evident in this photocopy is from the paper.
lith65mm-jpg.76907
 

Ian Grant

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What's confusing is he doesn't say Lith printing nor does the title of the thread. The "Infectious development" of a Lith developer doesn't work by increasing grain size though, rather an autocatalytic development of surrounding grains.

Ian
 

Sirius Glass

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Would developing the print in hot water increase the grain size? Changing the print's size? That would be a simple experiment. I don't need any help making grain smaller or disappear though. From day one in the darkroom, the grain that looked so cool in a proof scan usually disappears in the print.

Developing in hot water can float the emulsion off the paper. How do I know? I have done it.
 

miha

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What's confusing is he doesn't say Lith printing nor does the title of the thread. The "Infectious development" of a Lith developer doesn't work by increasing grain size though, rather an autocatalytic development of surrounding grains.

Ian

It does say exactly that if you watch the video on YouTube. Here the context is lost.
 

Ian Grant

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Having seen a lot of Rudman's prints I just have no respect. If the image quality was excellent to start with then further enhanced with toning or lith techniques, that would be completely different.

But that's not what I've seen first hand, actual prints not scans.

Ian
 
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