The Sad State of Retail Photography Stores

epatsellis · Jun 20, 2006

Having been shooting and souping since I was abut 11 (1974), I've come to the same conclusions of late. Then something rather serendipitous happened, I was in St. Louis yesterday, and decided to stop by some of the smaller photo shops, first one was OJ's Photo.

Ok, first impression walking in was "sh$%". bricks and bricks fo B&W Ilford, a few boxes of 4x5 Ilford, some Agfa B&W, loads of paper up to 11x14, accessories, you name it, almost like being transported back 20 yearsH I asked about chemistry, he keeps it in the basement, due to space issues. There's at least 3 schools nearby that he mentioned and they all buy there. I had mentioned I'd taken to mail ordering and he's happy to match prices when he can, as he will ship to me, as well as order whatever he can get that he doesn't stock.

In my opinion, a small mom and pop that is willing to do this deserves my, as well as everybody elses support. here's the website:

Dead Link Removed

I'd love to see him get a boatload of business, as we both had the "good ole days" discussion and it sure sounded like it's not as much fun as it used to be for him.

there's 2 other larger stores in town, Schillers and Croeve Coeuer Camera, never even made it to those. As far as I'm concerned, I've found a store that I can at least make a difference with what I buy.

With the proliferation of big box stores and the loss of so many valuble small stores, somebody like this really deserves to get all the business he can. While he wont' be replacing JandC or some of the other vendors for me, I'll spend as much as I can with him, and gladly tell everybody about him.

erie

eclarke · Jun 21, 2006

There's a disease in the western world. Since the advent of the web, there's always a prostitute willing to sell things for no profit..Simply put, if there are no profits, before long there will be NO stores and no cushy jobs sitting on one's butt and processing data. We need more analog, brick and mortar things in every walk of life or in 20 years we will be the third world and the east will be sending work here for the cheap unskilled labor at pennies an hour...EC

colrehogan · Jun 21, 2006

epatsellis said:
Having been shooting and souping since I was abut 11 (1974), I've come to the same conclusions of late. Then something rather serendipitous happened, I was in St. Louis yesterday, and decided to stop by some of the smaller photo shops, first one was OJ's Photo.

Ok, first impression walking in was "sh$%". bricks and bricks fo B&W Ilford, a few boxes of 4x5 Ilford, some Agfa B&W, loads of paper up to 11x14, accessories, you name it, almost like being transported back 20 yearsH I asked about chemistry, he keeps it in the basement, due to space issues. There's at least 3 schools nearby that he mentioned and they all buy there. I had mentioned I'd taken to mail ordering and he's happy to match prices when he can, as he will ship to me, as well as order whatever he can get that he doesn't stock.

In my opinion, a small mom and pop that is willing to do this deserves my, as well as everybody elses support. here's the website:

Dead Link Removed

I'd love to see him get a boatload of business, as we both had the "good ole days" discussion and it sure sounded like it's not as much fun as it used to be for him.

there's 2 other larger stores in town, Schillers and Croeve Coeuer Camera, never even made it to those. As far as I'm concerned, I've found a store that I can at least make a difference with what I buy.

With the proliferation of big box stores and the loss of so many valuble small stores, somebody like this really deserves to get all the business he can. While he wont' be replacing JandC or some of the other vendors for me, I'll spend as much as I can with him, and gladly tell everybody about him.

erie

Thanks for posting this. I had never heard of this place and it's just down the road from where I work!

Diane

epatsellis · Jun 21, 2006

Diane,
You'll find that OJ is a wonderful person, and tell everyone you know that is even mildly interested in analog photography about it. It'd be wonderful if we could start a searchable database of 2 things:

1) advanced amatuer friendly photo shops. As I stated above, I'll gladly pay a small premium if I know that my money is supporting somebody and his family. I hate the faceless, unaccountable corporations that are quickly becoming the norm, I've been self employed my entire life, and have had several retail establishments, including a (at one time) quite prosperous video rental store, until Blockbuster opened up 3 miles up the road. I make it a habit to shop at the smaller stores whenever I can.

2) darkroom rentals, I travel frequently and would love to be able to have access to a darkroom, if only to process some 4x5 negs once in a while.

erie

Ben Taylor · Jun 21, 2006

David Brown said:
My wife sews. She gets almost all her fabric now via the internet. Can't find good stuff locally. :rolleyes:

Interesting you should say that, my wife does cross stitch - decided to try to support our local shop when buying some fairly standard fabric - they didn't have any in stock, couldn't order it in for her, and wouldn't accept payment for anything less than £10 except by cash. She found what she wanted for £7 delivered, online. It turned up the next day.

If small shops are going to compete with on-line retailers (what ever market they're in) they have to offer something you can't get on line. That may be a personal service, ordering in things for you, genuine impartial advice on products, what ever. Unfortunately there seem to be few local shops willing to do that (with, perhaps, a few notable exceptions).

C A Sugg · Jun 21, 2006

I too like to throw some business to the local stores, to keep B&W film available here in Richmond, VA. However, my last couple of buys have me rethinking that. The pro-pack of 120 Plus-X was intended for sale in Brazil and the 100 ft of Tri-X read something like "proud sponsor of the Canadian Olympic Commitee." They were selling semi-grey, that B&H usually has for a considerable discount, at full retail +. For all I know, that's where they got it, then marked it up as if it was regular distribution.

Charles

epatsellis · Jun 21, 2006

Of course, ethics does come into play somewhere. And that is teetering on the edge, very much so.

erie

michael9793 · Jun 21, 2006

When I was much younger I had been a manager of a Dodd camera store in cleveland at one time. Before that I worked at the downtown store that was a classic. old wood floors long glass counters with inventory on the shelves behind you. We carried every camera made. The company allowed use to take the cameras and use them to learn how they worked as well as knowing there features. We had everything. cameras, full darakrooms, mounting and matt boards and everything you can think of stocked. if we ran out, up stairs to inventory and get somemore. There profession inventory like lighting, processors and repair were at a different location, but within waking distance.
I miss that a lot. where I'm at, you have Ritz camera. what a joke. A couple of the guys understand things, but Ritz only orders what they think the public wants or there sales dictate. (digital). We are so lucky to have the J&C's, B&H, badger, etc... around to keep us supplied. We have lost the smell of a old stores where there is boxes of junk to go through and being able to wander around for hours looking into all the little corners to find things we really don't need but want. The times are changing.

regards
mike

juan · Jun 21, 2006

I've always found photo stores to be something of a mess. In the pre-digital days, most stores specialized in 35mm and stocked plenty of film and cameras for that. But for 4x5, I had to get film special ordered if I could convince the clerk that 4x5 film was really not the same as 35mm or 120.

Then Kodak invented T-Max and trying to convince a photo store clerk that T-max was not the same film as Tri-X, even though both had a "t" and and an "x" in the name became very difficult. I began to make a 250-mile round trip to Atlanta where I could buy film and paper off the shelf from a large, discount dealer.

I now live in a city that has one photo store left. The folks who work there are the most knowledgable I have ever seen at a photo store. One of the clerks taught photography at a university and has made every alternative process print you can think of. Unfortunately for me, the store has gone almost completely digital. They stock a little Ilford RC paper and a little Kodak and Ilford grey market film in 35mm and 120. Everything else is digital and inkjet.

They tell me they can special order Ilford products. I'd like to do business with them, and would even pay a small premium to help them stay in business. But their prices are more than double the prices of B&H, Calumet and Freestyle even with shipping included. I just can't justify the expense.
juan

Uncle Bill · Jun 21, 2006

I like this idea

epatsellis said:
Diane,
You'll find that OJ is a wonderful person, and tell everyone you know that is even mildly interested in analog photography about it. It'd be wonderful if we could start a searchable database of 2 things:

1) advanced amatuer friendly photo shops. As I stated above, I'll gladly pay a small premium if I know that my money is supporting somebody and his family. I hate the faceless, unaccountable corporations that are quickly becoming the norm, I've been self employed my entire life, and have had several retail establishments, including a (at one time) quite prosperous video rental store, until Blockbuster opened up 3 miles up the road. I make it a habit to shop at the smaller stores whenever I can.

2) darkroom rentals, I travel frequently and would love to be able to have access to a darkroom, if only to process some 4x5 negs once in a while.

erie

This is a brilliant idea,
For Toronto, Ontario, Canada there is Downtown Photo, 8 Elm Photo for independant and film oriented camera stores. For darkroom rentals: West Camera on Queen St. and Image Works on Spadina.

Bill

DKT · Jun 21, 2006

michael9793 said:
We have lost the smell of a old stores where there is boxes of junk to go through and being able to wander around for hours looking into all the little corners to find things we really don't need but want. The times are changing.

regards
mike

we're lucky enough in NC to still have a few stores like that. Mainly Peace Camera in Raleigh, and to a certain degree, Southeastern Camera. In the backrooms of both stores, you will find a scrounger's paradise....

Black Dog · Jun 21, 2006

Here in Blighty we have Mr Cad in Croydon (the only good thing ever to have come out of Croydon IMO)-an absaloute Aladdin's cave you can wander around from hours finding everything from 70 year old Dagors to just out of date Tech pan to Diafine-paradise! Also Nicholas just opp Mornington Crescent Tube station , Fox Talbot in Tottenham Court Road (both London), Teamwork in Shelton St WC1 (London again), Clocktower Cameras in Brighton ...........there must be others out there (MXV, Ffordes vg for mailorder), and Silverprint of course IMO the economics of retailing have a lot to do with the little guys going under-it doesn't get any easier for them but the good ones will survive. Just one store (Goldfinger) saved B + W photography in the UK in the 70s (then they became Silverprint).

david b · Jun 21, 2006

In Albuquerque, we have 2 somewhat decent camera shops about 1/2 mile apart from each other. They do carry b&w film of all sizes and they do have chemicals.

As I stated in my previous post, the new camera shop in Santa Fe has several bottles of KRST as well as lots of other chemicals. And the people who work there are "working" photographers in the spare time.

epatsellis · Jun 21, 2006

Gee BD, what would you charge me to send me some of those horrible 70 year old dagors? surely with everybody gone digital they can't be worth much

erie

Black Dog said:
Here in Blighty we have Mr Cad in Croydon (the only good thing ever to have come out of Croydon IMO)-an absaloute Aladdin's cave you can wander around from hours finding everything from 70 year old Dagors to just out of date Tech pan to Diafine-paradise! Also Nicholas just opp Mornington Crescent Tube station , Fox Talbot in Tottenham Court Road (both London), Teamwork in Shelton St WC1 (London again), Clocktower Cameras in Brighton ...........there must be others out there (MXV, Ffordes vg for mailorder), and Silverprint of course IMO the economics of retailing have a lot to do with the little guys going under-it doesn't get any easier for them but the good ones will survive. Just one store (Goldfinger) saved B + W photography in the UK in the 70s (then they became Silverprint).

wotalegend · Jun 23, 2006

john_s said:
I live in a city of 3 million (Melbourne, Australia) and we still have several pro photo shops with a reasonable range of black and white supplies.

Where are they please? I know about Pinewood, and I know I can order on the net from Vanbar, but any others are well hidden.

athanasius80 · Jun 23, 2006

Quick plug: Terry's Camera in downtown Long Beach, CA. Nice sales guys with the time to talk. Last time I was there they had two Speed Graphics, a good amount of 35m equipment, some used darkroom stuff, and its just a cool place.

gnashings · Jun 23, 2006

michael9793 said:
When I was much younger I had been a manager of a Dodd camera store in cleveland at one time. Before that I worked at the downtown store that was a classic. old wood floors long glass counters with inventory on the shelves behind you. We carried every camera made. The company allowed use to take the cameras and use them to learn how they worked as well as knowing there features. We had everything. cameras, full darakrooms, mounting and matt boards and everything you can think of stocked. if we ran out, up stairs to inventory and get somemore. There profession inventory like lighting, processors and repair were at a different location, but within waking distance.
....(snip)

Mike, I want a time machine!
Its funny - my wife works at one of the biggest book retailers in North America, and an absolute iron-fist monopoly robber-baron in Canada. She gets a handsome employee discount and yes, they can get you about any book you want. But, we drive a good distance to a nearby town which contains an old, dusty book-shop (in a building behind a plaza with a driveway made for bicycles), with old, wooden book shelves from cieling to floor, creaky old wooden floors, and a guy who actually knows this huge, seemingly disarrayed inventory off the top of his graying head. Its hard to get to, was hard to find - but its a book store, for people who love books ran by people who love books. Part antiquariat, part second hand store - all magic! From rag-tag copies of various books to a first edition of "On The Road", there is something about sifting through its inventory even if you don't find anything you want(more often we pull ourselves out of there forcibly in order to have money for food and such). I know, off topic - but I think you can all see the parallels... What hell of a camera store that would be!

Peter.

gnashings · Jun 23, 2006

joneil said:
Then yesterday for Father's Day, I go to the local Chapters bookstore - this is the big chain of bookstores in Canada that are the size of supermarkets, and have a Starbucks built into them. Looking for books on fine woodworking, there are only two shelves of them, all aimed at novices. Nothing specialized or in depth, IMO. At least they now carry Lenswork and VC magazines.

Ha! SO, so true. Forgive my spamming of this thread, but I just had to respond to this!
Isn't it absolutely amazing!? The stores are HUGE. They put on every false pretense of being bibliophile friendly with old-library styled interiors, tables to sit at and a policy of letting customers read as long as they want. But then one looks at what is actually there...
The first thing at the main entrance is the music/video section. Then there are bargain racks, and the a huge rack of Coles Notes (Cliff notes for our friends down South). And then you try to look for something that is not on the bestseller list, or is not studied in every high-school in the country... and you realize: its a sea of crap! A huge, monsterous sea of DaVinci Codes and Stephen King droppings. Like you said, a store the size of a supermarket: three Hemingway books, two of them compilations that overlap in content. This is a BOOK store, for God's sake. In the photo section (nice, big shelf!) one copy of The Negative in a sea of this or that for dummies and user manuals for every digigizmo you can name!

What gets me is the attitude of most of the staff: We can order anything you want. I don't want to order in a store off the same web-site I have at home! I want to go into a book store, pick up a book, touch it, smell it, peruse a bit, get some ideas, have something catch my eye... Why have the stupid store in the first place?!

At least the traditional photo mags are somehow, magically, always in the front row at my location, in front of the sea of digi-rags... I do love that wife of mine!

Peter.

BrianShaw · Jun 23, 2006

athanasius80 said:
Quick plug: Terry's Camera in downtown Long Beach, CA. Nice sales guys with the time to talk. Last time I was there they had two Speed Graphics, a good amount of 35m equipment, some used darkroom stuff, and its just a cool place.

Keep a close eye on the place and stay on good terms with the staff... Sherman Oaks [CA] Camera recently closed after 50 years in the same location. It was one of those places like you describe... it was even privately owned and not secretly owned by the Hooper chain ;-) I wish I were there for their final days to see what kind of obscure and hard-to-find stuff they had in the back of their drawers and 'hidden' in their stockroom!

dmr · Jun 23, 2006

gnashings said:
in a sea of this or that for dummies and user manuals for every digigizmo you can name!

Hmmmm ... a very appropriately titled book here ... {ducking, running, hiding}

DBP · Jun 23, 2006

Always thought there was a high degree of redundancy there.

michael9793 · Jun 27, 2006

gnashings said:
Mike, I want a time machine!
Its funny - my wife works at one of the biggest book retailers in North America, and an absolute iron-fist monopoly robber-baron in Canada. She gets a handsome employee discount and yes, they can get you about any book you want. But, we drive a good distance to a nearby town which contains an old, dusty book-shop (in a building behind a plaza with a driveway made for bicycles), with old, wooden book shelves from cieling to floor, creaky old wooden floors, and a guy who actually knows this huge, seemingly disarrayed inventory off the top of his graying head. Its hard to get to, was hard to find - but its a book store, for people who love books ran by people who love books. Part antiquariat, part second hand store - all magic! From rag-tag copies of various books to a first edition of "On The Road", there is something about sifting through its inventory even if you don't find anything you want(more often we pull ourselves out of there forcibly in order to have money for food and such). I know, off topic - but I think you can all see the parallels... What hell of a camera store that would be!

Peter.

Peter,

This was the 1980's. I have since done to Dental School and have a practice in FLorida. So now instead of making a living in photography to supply my photo needs I do dentistry and supply my photo needs. You are right I love small little stores that have hidden spaces. Here in florida everything is a f---ing chain. The only photo store that isn't is run by some Ohio U. Photo allumni. Like me. Get this they supply the local schools with photo supplies. I go in there and they have dektol,D-76, kodak fixer. then in the paper department it is all RC. kodak and ilford. Now just ilford. I asked why just RC and they said (get this) that's what people only use today. NO ONE USES FIBER BASE PAPER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. I laughed in their faces and said that they were way out of touch and their anwser was we have not heard or anyone using fiber base paper because the RC is so much better. Wouldn't it be nice if these morons did a little reseach over the years. At least when you go into a Ritz Camera, your prepared to talk to morons.
regards
mike

copake_ham · Jun 27, 2006

I think it is worth noting that the very vehicle we are using to exchange these thoughts and laments has forever changed the retailing world generally.

The reality is that web-based global buying is rapidly making specialist retailers such as your neighborhood camera store obsolete - particularly for used gear. Yes, it is disappointing that you cannot browse the local store anymore looking at used camera gear - but we now have eBay as well as web-based retailers such as KEH (no connection, BTW) with extensive used gear offerings. [Consider, if fact, that eBay enables each of us to obtain the "retail price" when we sell - now that ain't bad.]

Of course, we've consequently lost the opportunity to "touch and feel" gear but, in reality, our choices are greater - even if it does mean waiting for the UPS or FedEx guy for a few days.

The other day on eBay I "won" a Nikkor 13.5cm lens designed to fit my Contax IIIc RF camera (both 50+ years old). What would be the chances of me finding one in the local camera store (and I live in NYC) these days?

So yes, it's sad that the old stores are disappearing - but this is true in all kinds of specialized retail businesses. At the same time, the web makes available to all of us, no matter where we are, a much greater choice than any local store could ever have provided.

camerashop · Jun 29, 2006

As the owner of Boise Photography & Darkroom Supply I know what it is like. We haven't embracaed digital as of yet and because of the ever expanding market place more than likey will never do so. You can even by a digital camera at the auto parts store across the street. We are doing the same thing we've been doing for the last 21 years and thats selling all the supplies for B&W and color photography. If anyone feels like supporting the little guy give us a call , we do real good mail order and have great service. You can reach us at 208.323.0022 or bopho2@aol.com. Sorry its taken so long to get on this site , its soooo great.

Tom cooper

JBrunner · Jun 29, 2006

Welcome Tom. Glad you found APUG. Tell everybody in Boise!

The thing I have noticed, and I'm not the first, is too, that at the giant megabookstore there is a big rack of photo books, 8 shelves- Adams, Avedon, Weston, Newton, Man Ray, etc etc, and contemporary photographers, and some of them are very expensive. These are the reference, the baseline, if you will, of photographic art. They are 99% film originated.

Next to that section is the technical section, 8 shelves of 90% crap about how imitate photography with a chip and a computer. The bookstore is just responding to the market. What it illustrates in reality, is the vast gap between the fine art photography consumer, and the concepts of the average joe or jane blow wannabe fine art photographer, blinded by digi marketing hype, to the giant irony right in front of their face.

The hacks have gone digital.

There has never been a better time to be a dedicated film photographer.

The Sad State of Retail Photography Stores

epatsellis

eclarke

colrehogan

epatsellis

Ben Taylor

C A Sugg

epatsellis

michael9793

juan

Uncle Bill

DKT

Black Dog

david b

epatsellis

wotalegend

athanasius80

gnashings

gnashings

BrianShaw

dmr

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DBP

michael9793

copake_ham

camerashop

JBrunner

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The Sad State of Retail Photography Stores

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