The Sad State of Retail Photography Stores

Papa Tango · Jun 17, 2006

Ch ch changes...

Bottom line is that it is not 20 or 30 years ago. I remember every drug store had that diamond shaped rack full of every kind and format of Kodak film you could think of. Three real photo stores in a city with a population of 20K, and dozens more within easy driving distance.

Everything I do these days is on the internet. Even in a large metropolitan area such as Lexington, stores closed down and went progressively digital. Having moved to the hinterlands, there is no option. But, even before it was cheaper. What's three days from an order with B&H?

While I still buy a fair amount of accessory sort of things new at B&H or Adorama, most everything else comes off the bay. The beauty is that it is at least half the cost that so-called camera stores try to sell their used at, but if I dont like it I can sell it back to someone else and get my money back. Most times make a profit at it too...

Yes, it's sad that these stores are closing down. Let's celebrate the fact that there are a lot of online resources that are happy to provide us with our toys!!!

Jorge · Jun 17, 2006

julio F said:
Downtown Montevideo pro photography store (they have a large Pro Kodak sign,anyway, and believe me this is a photographers's city):

Q: I want some 120 film, please

A: Sorry, only 100 and 400.

Nick Zentena · Jun 17, 2006

gnashings said:
-"120 - the long, skinny rolls"
"oh... (insert puzzled look)... but... this only comes in 24 exposures..."

Grunt then point to the fridge they are standing in front of -)

kb244 · Jun 17, 2006

I'm 25, I shoot mostly medium format, I work in a camera store that has tons of old cameras ( one of the largest private collection of film cameras east of St. Louis ). I like to shoot a lot of black and whites and so forth. I'll get alot of questions about why not just shoot digital, or why not do this or that, or you can do this with digital etc.

Like someone else I heard, if anyone goes on and on about "digital can do this, digital can do that" I'll probally take his advice and reply with "With film, we just shut the @&!@ up and shoot pictures"

The other thing is , alot of people will ask me why I shoot it, digital is better etc. Well I have so many MF bodies including the RB67 I just got, I usually just sum it down as, 3$ Roll of FP4+ + 150$ scanner + 250$ camera + my own development = 20 megapixel usable resolution equivalency easy.... try to do that with digital at the same price. ( not counting the number of rolls you go thru, but its the quick way to shut the unknowing up ).

Others just don't understand personal preferences, its like I like to shoot film, its an art for me, I like to develop the film myself B&W or slide, doesnt matter. ITs what I like to do, just like how some people will paint a picture of a rose rather than snap a picture and apple watercolor filter.

I've actually had some teens walk upto me during an Art's festival while I was shooting the RB67 , ask me 1) How old the camera was, and 2) How do I know if I captured the picture, cuz you cant see anything on the back.

Fortunatly for the internet, sites like this and others, I know I'm not alone in the art of analog photography, I know that I'm not just an odd one out and that I can least appreciate something before my time.

rjas · Jun 17, 2006

I used to work at a retail store about a year ago selling digital cameras to help pay for my first year of college. Anyways, once and a while I'd have a nice long chat with (usually) an older gentleman about film cameras, films, darkroom stuff. I remember at the end of one of these talks one guy said something to the effect of, "its nice to see that there are still people like you working in these stores." i never really thought of it but I was the only one in that store that knew anything about analog photography and I was the newest one there!

I'm lucky to have a local shop run by my old high school photo teacher that supplies all of my film needs. It generalyl costs more than mail ordering but for liquid chemicals its great and I have no problem with paying a couple dollars more to the same guy who got me into taking photos in the first place.

gnashings · Jun 17, 2006

In all fairness, the local Henry's outlet that I go to (the only place I can get any selection of film and any chems at all without driving into Toronto) is an up and down place. And the most pleasant, helpful and competent person there looks like he isn't shaving yet He's a young guy who knows his stuff (for the most part) and takes very good care of his customers - everyone, from the people like myself who share his passion, to people who want a digigizmo to document the effect of time on ugly children and cat-sized dogs.
Unfortunately, the flip side is that after 20 minutes I gave up trying to explain which PrintFile neg sleeves I wanted to the stores assistant manager - he got the "big wide film" part, but the idea of it making anything other than 6x6 square pictures was beyond his grasp.

Peter.

John Jarosz · Jun 17, 2006

Chemical Photography is alive and well in photo stores located in college towns. I haven't been let down in any of the small towns that have big colleges or universities.

But the times are changin.

John

Dave Starr · Jun 17, 2006

There hasn't been a "real" camera store here in over 20 years. There's one 40 miles south that's pretty good, with a fair selection of film & darkroom supplies. No sheet film, though. Other than that, there's Chicago - Central and Calumet - or Columbus - Midwest Photo - both about 280 miles away. OR, B&H, J&C, and Freestyle - just a UPS delivery away.

Chazzy · Jun 17, 2006

Joe Lipka said:
Chazzy - Would that be Ault's?

Wigwam - Head to Raleigh, Peace Street Camera is alive and well. (The partners that owned Southeastern split. Peace Street Camera is at the old Southeastern location. Southeastern moved to Cary.)

No, I was referring to Gene's here in South Bend. Great people, some of whom are quite knowledgable, but they look at me as if I requested something exotic if I want xp2 in 120, type 55 sheet film, etc.

P C Headland · Jun 17, 2006

I have to say my experience in both Amsterdam (NL), where I used to live, and now here in Wellington (NZ) has been fairly positive. Several shops in Amsterdam carried a reasonable selection of MF & LF film, papers and chemicals. Even the customer service was quite good, which is a rarity in Amsterdam There were still one or two places that hadn't cottoned on to the price shifts in the market. One was trying to sell some less than stellar looking Kiev 4 rangefinders for €200 and more!!

Here in Wellington most of the developing/camera houses are largely geared to digital, but you can still buy 35mm trad and chromogenic B+W film in them, albeit at a price. The young guy at the counter even expressed his preferrence for Neopan 400 over HP5.

Then there are the shops that cater more for the enthusiast/pro, and they carry a fair range of film, papers and chemicals, especially considering the size of the market down here. Prices vary wildly though, and it is often cheaper to buy from overseas.

The internet has made things at lot easier though, and gives a choice especially for those in more distant lands. However, if I can buy locally at a reasonable price, and the store gives good customer service, I will try and support the local business.

john_s · Jun 17, 2006

I was surprised at a wedding recently that the photographer shot only film with a couple of high end Canons (colour film, but at least it was film). He told me that he had used digital at weddings but in his part of the market film was more economical (taking into account the time taken to get the best print) and people preferred the look of film. I live in a city of 3 million (Melbourne, Australia) and we still have several pro photo shops with a reasonable range of black and white supplies. Sometimes they have to get stuff in because they can't afford to stock the shelves as they used to.

DBP · Jun 17, 2006

I'm very spoiled. I was mildly disappointed today that the shop didn't have a lens board for my Anny Speed Graphic. I was sure I had seen one there. Couldn't find the series VI push on adapter I needed either, but did find some nice Series V filters I needed for the new Argus.

Robert Hall · Jun 17, 2006

While some of our larger pro shops are carrying more digital supplies, the film presence is strong enough here in Salt Lake City.

Several of the food stores carry Kodak black and white films and develop them as well. There are several camera shops in strip malls here that still carry chems as well. I see what I look for. As for someone knowing what KRST is, well hell, I've been to these stores for 20 years and no younger kid has know what that is.

Let's not confuse fools looking for a summer job with the inability to find supplies.

Uncle Bill · Jun 17, 2006

I am blessed with a competent Henry's Outlet in my part of the universe which is well stocked with film, as for chemicals I have to make the trip into the city which is no big deal as I am going to school at Ryerson part time at night and I have car.

As for used camera gear in Southern Ontario, well, there is Commercial Camera in North York, International Camera on the Queensway in Etobicoke however I don't think the owner wants to stay open much longer and there is Henry's where the only deals are on their Ebay Store or the clearance centre, I laugh everytime I see the prices on their used assortment in the regular outlets. As long as Downtown Camera, Vistek, and Henry's main outlet keep a full stock of provisions, I don't care. I'll get the rest off the web.
I have worked retail recently for the last time and everyone is considered disposible in that industry. The irony is good knowledgable people are impossible to find regardless if its photography, clothing, books, CD's, etc.
As for Peter out in Oshawa, like you I think there are a lot of film users out there being ignored, does anyone have an idea how many film photographers there are in South Central Ontario? I would love to drop that number if I get a dumb "digital is better" mantra from some inbred git from the other side of the counter.

Bill

Wayne Olson · Jun 18, 2006

There is hope after all....

All,

It's been great reading your posts and replies. I guess I get sort of down when I realize how few people I encounter who know, understand, respect and love analog photography.

Mind you, I'm not anti-digital. I think my Canon Rebel XT, shooting in RAW mode, manually focused, on a tripod with a remote release (sounds awfully analog, doesn't it??) gives me color results on the Epson 2200 superior to anything 35 mm ever did. 11X14's never looked this good from Ektachrome or Kodachrome.

Nonetheless, I find myself enamored of black and white. Today I returned from Pro Photo Connection in Irvine, Ca where they DO HAVE SELENIUM TONER - BOTTLES AND BOTTLES OF IT!, to discover that my "vintage" Burke and James 5X7 purchased on Flea Bay had arrived. I spent a delightful afternoon taking it apart, appreciating the thought and workmanship and anticipating making 5X7 contact prints. Platinum, palladium, gum bichromate.

To each his own. To the retailers trying to make aliving, I say just have a little respect for those of us who stay tied to the heart, soul and essence of photography. To all of you who DO have good, dedicated retailers of analog supplies, count your blessings. Get out there and burn some film.

Also, thanks to all for your wonderful and supportive remarks. Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to go take my Geritol.

"Say I'm old-fashioned, say I'm over the hill,
call me a relic, call me what you will;
Today's music ain't got the same soul,
I love that old time rock and roll." -Bob Seger

Wayne Olson

gnashings · Jun 18, 2006

Uncle Bill said:
I am blessed with a competent Henry's Outlet in my part of the universe which is well stocked with film, as for chemicals I have to make the trip into the city which is no big deal as I am going to school at Ryerson part time at night and I have car.

As for used camera gear in Southern Ontario, well, there is Commercial Camera in North York, International Camera on the Queensway in Etobicoke however I don't think the owner wants to stay open much longer and there is Henry's where the only deals are on their Ebay Store or the clearance centre, I laugh everytime I see the prices on their used assortment in the regular outlets. As long as Downtown Camera, Vistek, and Henry's main outlet keep a full stock of provisions, I don't care. I'll get the rest off the web.
I have worked retail recently for the last time and everyone is considered disposible in that industry. The irony is good knowledgable people are impossible to find regardless if its photography, clothing, books, CD's, etc.
As for Peter out in Oshawa, like you I think there are a lot of film users out there being ignored, does anyone have an idea how many film photographers there are in South Central Ontario? I would love to drop that number if I get a dumb "digital is better" mantra from some inbred git from the other side of the counter.

Bill

Well, a trip into Toronto is a bit of a hassle for me - but it still is only a couple hours wasted to get in, get done and get out. We have a Henry's outlet here, and one in Pickering (15 minutes West of where I live), and I have to reiterate that I have had some great experiences there as well. I try to post them up whenever they come up simply to be fair. There are some good folks at that store, and they do try. But it seems the company line is not the same as their personal approach. And I am not just talking of seeking a fellow film zealot - there is a woman who works at my local Henry's who is an ardent digital user/propagator, but she is a knowledgeable and competent photographer who can and does help me with my needs in a very professional fashion (while mercilessly teasing me about my antiquated ways - but in good fun).
As to the Henry's outlet centre, you have to go there if in Toronto - as Bill states, there are deals there AND a very colourful character working behind the counter. Sure, he makes fun of me for being a Canon user , but he's great to talk to and very helpful.
I would love to get a number of us Southern Ontario film guys - I think it would be eye opening, wether to us, or to the store owner. Either way, I would love to know. So far, including Bill, I know of 4 for sure. There has to be more - what would be a good way to find out? Is it even do-able?

Peter.

pentaxuser · Jun 18, 2006

As I walked out I spied a used Leica M6 in the glass case. I thought about taking a look, but didn't want to hear the lame excuses about why it had no LCD preview screen.

Funny how they never know anything about analogue but always seem to know the right price to ask for a Leica!

pentaxuser

dmr · Jun 18, 2006

Jim Chinn said:
That is just the reality of a world that is 90% digital. In my area (metro population 800,000) we have one camera store that has a very small section of analog supplies and only one color lab for custom processing.

I'm assuming you are talking about Rockbrook Photo. I live almost equidistant between their two shops and stop in to both occasionally and buy mostly odds and ends and such.

Ya know, I really want to support places like this, I mean they are the only "real" camera shop left in the area, but ...

The real problem was demonstrated the other day when I stopped by during thier annual tent sale. Prices like $5.75 for a 24exp roll of 135 FP4 and $105 for a 100 sheet box of Ilford MGIV. You have to be an idiot to pay those prices considering what you can pay ordering from B&H or Freestyle.

If they would be just a wee bit competitive on film, I would sure give them more business, but realistically, when I shoot almost exclusively C41 film, why should I buy there when I can get what I need at Target' for half the price.?

At those prices I don't think the store has any interest in analog other then to gouge customers.

I really don't see Rockbrook as bad guys at all, or even anti film. I'm sure they will carry film and develop it as long as there is the market, and at the prices that the market will support. However, I see them as the survivors of the economic darwinism, in that they are the sole remaining full-service shop in the area (I keep hearing of this other place on 120th, but never checked them out, I go by there to pick up donuts for work occasionally, but they're not open that early) and they will sell what sells, and that is now high-end digital, video, and printers and supplies and such.

Their attitude is definitely not "put you down and sell you digital" as it is in some places. I went in there last summer looking for a lens cap for my Mamiya SD frankencamera rangefinder, and the guy went right to the rack, let me open up the package to be sure it would fit, and didn't either say any of that "when are you gonna go digital?" or that condescending "wow, a real oldie here" nonsense. He knew what I needed, had it, and sold it.

I do realize that they have some things in there that nobody else carries. I actually saw spanner wrenches in there a while ago.

Oh well, so it goes ...

Uncle Bill · Jun 18, 2006

What would be really cool is a place like Blue Moon Camera and Machine out of Portland Oregon, I read about them on the Pentax Spotmatic Users Group on Yahoo and checked out their site. I like Blue Moon Camera's philosophy and I wish some other crazies open stores up in really big metropolitan areas with large photographic communities like it. You can thrive by going niche.

Bill

Fascist · Jun 19, 2006

The last time I went into the local (When I say local, I have to drive 45 minutes to get there) photo store in Brisbane to buy XTOL, the sales guy complained that they had to buy in a whole box of it in order to sell me one 5L kit. Funny thing is that it's always gone the next time I need it, so someone's buying it! On the upside, they do still stock 120 rollfilm, bulk rolls of 35mm, and I've even seen sheet film in the fridge, but only 4x5. In a surprising variety of emulsions at competitive prices too, but I'm foreseeing a day when we have to order it online from Melbourne, or overseas. Hopefully there will still be enough of us locally to make the cost worthwhile.

Sandra Billingham · Jun 19, 2006

There are quite a few stores here in London still selling film but I prefer mail order anyway - I never liked most relailers, they were always trying to sell you stuff you didnt want. I much prefer ordering online.

gnashings · Jun 19, 2006

Sandra Billingham said:
There are quite a few stores here in London still selling film but I prefer mail order anyway - I never liked most relailers, they were always trying to sell you stuff you didnt want. I much prefer ordering online.

I think this is a large part of the problem. Digital may or may not be many things, but it is certainly perfect for "secondary sales". Or in plain English: crap you don't need. Or at the very least, crap you didn't need until you decided that "its so much easier with my digital"....
I like to support local retailers, but the bottom line is, I am still a customer - not a charity.
I don't blame you for going to mail order - I am sure having to put up with the inadvertant biases due to being a woman didn't help, either. I have seen how infuriating the attitude of staff selling anything technical gets when a woman walks through the door. Even if the clerk is a woman herself!

Peter.

Markok765 · Jun 19, 2006

Tottaly off topic, but when i tell my friends how much i spend on film,paper and chemicals(1.5 thousand i think its coming to)and on lenses. they say"y dont you get a d*igi*al? i say:
1.The quality is crap(even with digi slrs)
2.way more expensive
2.its fun to dev my own films and papers

catem · Jun 19, 2006

gnashings said:
I don't blame you for going to mail order - I am sure having to put up with the inadvertant biases due to being a woman didn't help, either. I have seen how infuriating the attitude of staff selling anything technical gets when a woman walks through the door. Even if the clerk is a woman herself!

Peter.

Funny you should say that - that was my immediate response when I read Sandra's post above.
If I know what I want I ALWAYS prefer to buy on-line. There are some shops I will talk to people on the phone, some I won't. Being patronised is, I would say, quite normal. Maybe it happens to men, too, I don't know, but I can hear the voice and attitude change only when it becomes obvious that I know what I'm talking about. (So heaven forbid I DON'T know what I'm talking about... And I have seen men asking true idiot-questions being treated with respect).

A couple of weeks ago I was in a very well-known branch of a very well-known chain in New Oxford St., downstairs (gottit?). Granted, Saturday afternoon, which I usually avoid, but I was passing and decided to drop in. I waited in the very loose queueing system they have (very like waiting at a bar). Very patiently. Two guys being served already. Another two waiting, before me, they go next. I wait for at least ten-fifteen full minutes, possbly longer, looking patient but expectant, occasionally leaning a little on the counter, just to make sure they know I'm there. The customers leave, in fact for a brief moment there's no-one waiting but me (some other people have given up), I'm about to open my mouth, and the spotty youth behind the counter notices someone (a man) come up and browse something in the display, totally ignores me and asks him if he needs help. The guy doesn't want help, so the assistant makes to go disappear off behind the counter in another direction (tea-break?). I have to hail him "EXCUSE ME!"
It's a while since I've been made to feel so invisible. I realised afterwards if he saw me at all he probably thought I was hanging around waiting for my hubby.

When I asked if they stocked focus-screens for Mamiya RZ's he didn't have a clue what I was talking about.

I have to qualify this by saying I have received expert help from this department in the past. Actually it was just one particularly nice man who was there for a while. And Saturday is the day for spotty-youths-behind-the-counter. BUT getting attention in the first place is ALWAYS just like being an eighteen-year-old girl waiting for a half a lager and a packet of crisps.

The point about it is, though, silly as the situation was, it did make me feel small. Obviously I've been waiting to express it! Thanks, better now....I just sometimes wonder what's really changed in the last 20 -30 years.

eubielicious · Jun 19, 2006

Sandra Billingham said:
There are quite a few stores here in London still selling film but I prefer mail order anyway - I never liked most relailers, they were always trying to sell you stuff you didnt want. I much prefer ordering online.

The funny thing is that there's a small Jessops store here in Bradford. I know they don't stock a lot of stuff (I think I bought their last box of FP4+ sheet film), but they are reasonably knowledgeable and there's a young woman whose eyes lit up when I started asking about sheet film and darkroom stuff - she seemed very much a film person and said she really wanted to go large format. So, it's not all bad, you know.

As long as there are enterprising people around (such as Retrophotographic), there will be film and chemicals, even if it's not from the Kodaks of this world.

Euan

The Sad State of Retail Photography Stores

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