The rising price of chemicals (UK) ...

pdeeh. As Silverprint has no presence on APUG why not give them a call on the phone and ask them the reasons for the price increases and then, if you will, tell us what they are.

In your reply to me I think you have largely worked things out to your own satisfaction anyway and concluded that little or no blame rests with the supplier.

Things are what they are and that's a pity but there appears to be no more to be said and nothing that can be done about it.

I do hope that Silverprint and all the other suppliers are in fact your friend and not tempted to exhibit the normal behaviour of a business when in a monopolistic position which is to exploit its position.

pentaxuser

I think I detect a sarcastic edge to your comment, pentaxuser, that does you no credit.

It is no more reasonable or sensible to attribute only evil intent to commercial organisations than to attribute only good intent. To suggest that I "think they are my friends" is a particularly egregious example of setting up a premiss for a straw-man argument.

One of the things I learned in business is that you soon go out of it if you can't make a profit. The other - and this is particularly true of small outfits like Silverprint, and unfortunately much less true of the gigantic outfits like banks - is that treating customers only as dupes to have their money extracted from as fast as possible is also a sure route to failure.

I'm neither defending nor attacking Silverprint, merely observing something. I have no axe to grind except that of being irritable with being attributed attitudes and beliefs that I don't possess.

So, with that said, and sad that yet another APUG thread has turned "personal", I'll add this thread and yet another individual to my "ignore list" .

mr rusty said:

If you desperately need some check out the auction site. I can see this source being shut down soon as it is significantly against the rules to ship in normal post..

Click to expand...

Sending Dichromates (along with many other chemicals) by Royal Mail leaves the sender open to prosecution which could result in a substantial fine and/or prison sentence. In addition, as a significant amount of post is distributed around the country by air, RM themselves could be fined heavily - It goes without saying, that if prohibited items are discovered in the post, they are subject to seizure and pending the outcome of an investigation, destruction. As anything put on an aircraft is routinely x-rayed for "security" reasons, the chances of discovery is much greater than it used to be.


Side note: Heard from an insider that a package containing cannabis was "discovered" in a local sorting office (it was the smell that gave it away) - The police were called and the intended recipient got an early morning wake up call. The sender had thoughtfully put a return address on the package.... Another early morning visit

pdeeh said:

Potassium Dichromate is a synonym for Potassium Bichromate. Same chemical.

Click to expand...

I stand corrected.

As I understand thing re silverprint it has not actually changed hands, Martin Reed has stepped down from running things day to day and has stayed on as a consultant, with a new MD appointed running things day to day, I was speaking about some raw chemicals the other day, they are becoming harder to source, new EU regulations on what can and can't be sold, and as a lot of our raw chemicals originate in other industries such as some in food, and if they are dropped or banned in say food then they become much more expensive to manufacture in the very small quantities that photographers will use, and invetiably prices will increase, I have not used raw chemicals for a few years now, but wanted to try something, but I could get a kit for what I needed at half the price of buying the raw chemicals,

Keten's price for Metol hasn't changed in the last two years, so the price increase seems to come from within Silverprint and does not indicate a global trend.

RalphLambrecht said:

sorry for kidnaping the thread but this reminded me of an old idea. Does anyone have a list of things that can be used as photochemicals but is commonly found in the kitchen or a local grocery store
|I try to get started:
coffe-as developer
citric acid-as a stop bath
baking soda-asan accelerator
salt- for HCAAND A MILD FIXER
what else and for what
ideallyI like to end up with all processing chemicals right out of the kitchen.Is that possible?
:confused:

Click to expand...

Sodium thiosulphate (hypo) is sold as a food additive for cattle, so can be found in farmers' co-ops etc, much cheaper than as photochemical. Like sodium sulphite, it is used in a multitude of industrial and agricultural applications, such as leather tanning. So it is generally speaking very easy to obtain. Ammonium thiosulphate is somewhat harder to obtain, and more expensive.
Sodium carbonate (washing soda) is sold in grocery stores.
Vitamin C or sodium ascorbate is of course used in caffenol and related developers, and is sold in health food shops.
Tartaric acid is used in some alternative processes, such as Van Dyke Brown.
Sodium hydroxide is used in for instance Rodinal, and is sold as drain cleaner.
Potassium metabisulphite is used in many formulas, including reducers and hypo-clear, and is sold as an additive in wine and also in preparation of dried fruit, so can be commonly found in farmers' co-ops.
Paracetamol (aka acetaminophen) is the precursor to the active component in Parodinal, and is sold as pain killer (Tylenol).
Potassium permanganate (used in some bleach formulas) is sold as disinfectant in grocery stores and pharmacies.
Copper sulphate (blue vitriol; used in some bleach formulas) is also sold in pharmacies and grocery stores, mainly as fungicide.

I think most will be surprised how many of the other photochemicals are also used as precursors or reagents in the manufacture of industrial organic compounds such as pharmaceuticals. Phenidone is one such example, as are the pyro compounds such as cathecol and pyrogallol. Many photochemicals are used for the same general purpose in industrial application as they are used in photography, i.e. as pH buffering (carbonates and borates) or chelating agents (EDTA) etc. For that reason they are not particularly hard to obtain via general chemical suppliers. An interesting chemical sometimes used in hair products, is amidol. It is however quite toxic and very expensive, and unfortunately short-lived. I have not yet purchased it via that avenue, as the shipping quantities are typically 25 kg. That will make an awful lot of paper developer. What makes such chemicals expensive is not the starting reagents or process per se, but the administrative overheads of dealing with and distributing hazardous chemicals, and providing proper safety measures etc, especially when international borders are crossed. I am sure you'd be able to buy it for $5/kg directly from the plant that produces it.

The idea of developers such as caffenol or parodinal made from ingredients entirely available from grocery or hardware stores is rather charming. What is more, demonstrating how film can be developed with such lowly and commonly available materials really opens up some people (especially children) to the wonders of 'chemical photography'.

pdeeh said:

I think I detect a sarcastic edge to your comment, pentaxuser, that does you no credit.

Click to expand...

The sarcastic edge in Pentaxuser's post eluded me, but that may be attributable to me being dense or not having had enough sleep. My own remark earlier was made tongue-in-cheek, so forgive me if you saw it as being personal. Some if not most of us are not native english speakers, and a lot gets lost or distorted in translation. Try to read without bias, otherwise it may seem hypocritical to protest at being attributed intentions you don't possess, while doing like to others. Or ignore whomever you wish - you are fully entitled to that also. I for one appreciate your presence on APUG, and hope you find a way to tolerate those posters that don't rub you quite the right way.

pdeeh said:

I am just placing an order with Silverprint and thought I'd better top up on Metol ... but am a trifle gobsmacked to find that in the 9 months since I last ordered, the price of 100g has risen from £11.28 (inc VAT) to £18.96 (inc VAT) - i.e, about 60% up in the space of 9 months.

This prompted me to check a few other bits and bobs: Hydroquinone, I paid £9.76 for 250g in May 2013, today it is priced at £9.36/100g (or £23.40/250g); Phenidone 25g, £7.85 (last May, £4.88); Sodium Carbonate £10.10/1.5Kg (£5.40 last August).

I'm not suggesting Silverprint are "trying it on" - I just think it goes to show how how niche (and therefore expensive to acquire) photochemicals are becoming over here.

Couple that with the fact that you can no longer buy metaborate from them, and more recently that they seem to have dropped CD-3 and CD-4 and I begin to wonder for how much longer we'll be able to buy raw chemicals like this in the UK. Silverprint are one of the few places raw developing agents can be bought in the UK (yes, I know we can buy from Moersch, but shipping is ridiculous and they've never answered any of my enquiry emails to them anyway)

just a blurt and steam-letting-off really.

Click to expand...

Search on eBay. Hydroquinone, Photo Grade - 300g works out at £22.12 including postage to UK.

The last batch of Catechol I bought came from Poland, including postage it was half the price it would be from UK sources.



RR

pdeeh, I felt you seem to have concluded that by and large Silverprint is not exploiting its position and you may be right. I then suggested that you contact Silverprint to find out its reasons for the large price increases which will give you a better position from which to draw conclusions and inform us as well.

I tend to the view that if a supplier believes itself to have a monopoly position or more monopolistic position it is likely to increase prices but you may not take this view as is your prerogative.

If the price rises are beyond Silverprints control then it seems to me that there is little if anything further to be said on the subject. "Things are what they are" to use my words in my previous post.

If you wish to ignore my posts in future that also is your prerogative but I was simply trying to reflect what I thought your position was on the price increases which were big enough to persuade you to put pen to paper with a view, I thought, to getting others' views.

At the risk of enraging you further I would just point you to a post after mine which suggests that Silverprint's position may not be the same as other suppliers in terms of the price rises and may not reflect a economic trend

pentaxuser

pdeeh said:

I begin to wonder for how much longer we'll be able to buy raw chemicals like this in the UK. Silverprint are one of the few places raw developing agents can be bought in the UK.

Click to expand...

Having used up the last of my metol stock, I am also in need of ordering more. Checked out some of the supplies that claim "if you need it, we can supply it" to no avail. Just had a response from Rose Chemicals in London with a price of £12.50+VAT for 100g and P&P at £6.50+VAT - Compared to Silverprint's price of £18.96/100g (inc VAT), it looks cheap, but then it is easy enough to get a big enough order together to qualify for free shipping from Silverprint.

A moot point as I've already ordered 200g for £19.00 (inc P&P and VAT) from an ebay supplier.

Is that from the Ukraine, Paul ?

pdeeh said:

Is that from the Ukraine ?

Click to expand...

One of the dangers of not keeping up with current events - Hadn't known about the current unrest in Ukraine.... If it doesn't turn up in a reasonable time, I have some protection via PayPal.

Despite local disagreements within Ukraine, the package took just over a week to arrive - If anyone plans on following suit, get yourself some containers to store the stuff in. It get shipped in a well sealed plastic bag.