If you distill down all that artspeak I spewed, it actually makes quite a bit of sense, especially in light of Stieglitz' photos. He photographed those clouds, trying to capture on film some emotional response he had to seeing them. Even the titles are just suggestive symbols for what he felt, since you can't transmit an emotional response in a single word (or even a dictionary's worth). Words themselves are NOT feelings, and neither are pictures. We rely on the assumption that someone else will have a common experience with us when looking at the same subject. This is of course a false assumption, but a necessary one. If we could not rely on that assumption being logically valid a majority of the time, communication between two people would be impossible.
A case in point -the color white. In western cultures, white is the color of weddings and celebrations. It represents purity. In Asian cultures, white is the color of death and mourning. If I were to photograph someone wearing all white, most westerners would look at it and think of positive events - weddings, First Communion, christenings, cocktail parties. Someone from China would look at it and wonder where's the funeral. Abstract this out to the notion of language - since the written (or even the spoken) word is an artificial idea, entirely man-made, why does the letter "e" HAVE to have the sound we associate with it? Monty Python spoofed this in a way when in a skit, a man walks into a store and tells the clerk, "My name is Snarglevarglebingbangbong"(or something like that, I can't remember the exact name), to which the clerk replies, "how do you spell that?" and he says, "S-M-I-T-H".
All language really is is grunts,whistles and clicks coming out of our mouths, and scratches and squiggly lines on a piece of paper. It has no actual reality - it only means something because we agree that "camera" means a camera.
The same is true of photographs - we have a common acceptance of what the photograph means because we have to in order to be able to interpret it. Like looking at a cloud, though, you can see a racecar and I can see Pam Anderson in a bikini in that cloud. When we have that big of a disconnect, we can't arrive at a common meaning.
Seems Stieglitz was a photographic artist, not a photographer.
I certainly agree that I often attempt to convey what I saw. But I'm not as certain that a photographer can convey what he/she "felt" at the time of shooting.
Firstly, does he mean "feel" in the sense of what the photo image is meant to convey? Or does he mean "feel" as in his mood or disposition when he conceived and took the photograph?
Think for a moment of a mundane snapshot. It's easy to "see" what the shooter "saw" but one doesn't intuitively get a sense of what the shooter felt. In fact, often with such a photo the shooter "felt" intensely about his subject yet a detached viewer will feel nothing.
I too, agree with this aspect of Stiegltz' philosophy. That is why I am proposing a "intuitive Reaction" gallery here. DID I express an "equivalence"? DID I succeed in creating a specific "emotional state" as I had intended?; and if I did not, what did happen?
This is probably a bit off subject, but the idea of a photograph evoking the same emotion (or any emotion) of that of the photographer in the viewer is not only highly egoistical, it is just a little bit wierd and invasive. Will
This is probably a bit off subject, but the idea of a photograph evoking the same emotion (or any emotion) of that of the photographer in the viewer is not only highly egoistical, it is just a little bit wierd and invasive...
If I understand you correctly and sorry If I don't, I don't think Stieglitz's equivalency statement implies that the same emotional and aesthetic impact is supposed to be transferred directly to the viewer. IMO, Stieglitz's statement implies the success of the photograph as an expressive image must be apparent to the photographer first--it must reveal (in the photographer's mind) what he/she "saw" and "felt". It's success to the viewer may not rest with those same criteria. But what an awsome success it would be if the viewer could "see" and "feel" the image in the same way.
I have this image in my head of Stieglitz springing out of his image trying to thrust his emotion into my brain.
Dear Will,
Isn't that what any artist, in any medium, is trying to do? Communicate an emotion? And he has no emotions other than his own that he can communicate.
This is why the whole doctrine of 'equivalences' has always struck me as a (slightly pretentious) restatement of the obvious.
Cheers,
R.
Dear Chuck,Roger,
A rhetorical statement, I admit, but....
Do you think Stieglitz's doctrine is a restatement of the obvious when considering his own time (in the early days of his photography when he moved from pictorialism to a more pure form of photography)? Was he re-hashing the obvious when he realized that photography had to stand on its own merits by virtue of the simple qualities of the camera and that of the lens? His doctrine of "equivalency" should be discussed here in the context of the time period in which it was spoken. Sixty years after his death and even longer since he made that statement makes it simple enough to claim that he was being, merely, pretentious. IMHO, I think it was profound.
Chuck
I still have considerable difficulty with 'pictorialism' vs. 'pure' as a simple contrast.I find it to be a most straight forward, unconfusing (is that even a word?:rolleyesconcept. I fail to see how problematic these terms are to some. Just an observation from past discussions on the subject.
I am more skilled with words than with a camera, and I have serious doubts about superimposing quasi-mystical verbal comments on a non-verbal medium.
R.
I agree with this 100% and have felt so long before I ever started trying to understand historical figures like Adams, Stieglitz, White, etc.... You know who else would agree with you? AA himself) , I have been around long enough to know that you just love that ). Just kidding, I feel that you may be one of those who really dislikes AA's writings and photographic approach. Perhaps I'm wrong though----anyway, these quotes seem to parallel your statement.
AA stated that he "cannot verbalize on the internal meaning in pictures whatsoever. Some of my friends can at very mystical levels. I prefer to say that if I feel something strongly that I would make a photograph that would be the equivalent of what I saw and felt." And similarly, "If something moves me, I do not question what it is or why; I am content to be moved. If I am sufficiently moved and it has aesthetic potential, I will make a picture."
Sorry for all the quoting, but your comments just seemed to strike evenly with those thoughts.
The equivalency, therefore, to get back to the OP, IMO, is the quest of the photographer and the photographer alone. Though I understand the terms "saw" and "felt" in the context of "equivalency", I really only grasp the "saw" part i.e., the visualization while practicing my own photography.
Anyway, this has been an interesting discussion.
Chuck
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