The most confusing Camera System issue you'll read today

[fabulousrice]

This is a follow-up to Part 1, Part 2.

I obtained a Bronica ETRS body a couple of years back with a AE-II viewfinder, a 120 back and three lenses: 75mm, 150mm, 200mm. Let's call this body the "silver" one cause it has a silver timer lever.

Used it a few times, worked great. Then last year, pressing the shutter would sometimes not fire the shot.

I asked a question here, someone said "try to put a new back on". I did, problem persisted (yes even with new batteries).

So I thought "might be the body". Bought another ETRS body which we'll call the "black" body cause it has a black timer lever. I didn't run many tests because my 75mm lens is very stiff to put on and off and I don't feel great doing it too much...

Put a new battery inside the new body, went out to shoot a roll... roll came back blank.

I opened the back and squeezed the trigger a few times, and I couldn't see the shutter open from the back. Through the viewfinder, yes, but through the film gate, nothing, the lens shuts off.

So I thought "might be the lens, then". Bought another 75mm lens from a seller who said "works smoothly".

Hang on... when I put the new lens on the new body... same problem! If I set the AE-II viewfinder to "A" [Auto] - no light can be seen through the lens from the back.
If I set it on "M" [manual] to, say, 4 seconds, light can be seen through the back.

And if I use the 150mm lens, I can see light through the back of the camera with both "A" and "M" settings - with either bodies!

But both 75mm lenses won't do it.

So - my questions are:

1. should I send back the last 75mm lens I bought, is it defective? Knowing that both the old lens I had and the new one show the same behavior
2. should I return the last body I got as well? Since I'm not sure which part is defective
3. I read the troubleshooting guide someone posted on my 2nd post, but I don't really "get" it. It lists issues but not solutions or diagnostics. How do I see if the bodies I have or lenses I have work properly?
4. could there be a problem between the AE-II viewfinder and the lens, without the body being at fault? (since the M position seems to work fine for all lenses, but in "A" position lens behavior changes from the 75mm and the 150mm).
5. Is the Bronica ETRS system finally not a good investment for an occasional Medium Format shooter, given its electronics might age badly? What other systems with reflex and Auto Exposure might age better, or should I just forget about AE if shooting with a MF reflex?
6. Should I send everything to a repair place that someone recommended instead of keeping up with this this madness? (YES lol)

 

[removed account4]

hey fabulousrice

sorry for my cluelessness and offending you if this question is offensive

when you bought the original camera/back and lenses did you ever send them out to a repair person to have the usual post-purchase-cla done on them to make sure and assure they would all be in tip-top shape? ...I ask cause sellers stretch the truth and stuff really isn't paid for in full until the CLA is paid...

#6. >>> YES

 

[fabulousrice]

hey fabulousrice

sorry for my cluelessness and offending you if this question is offensive

when you bought the original camera/back and lenses did you ever send them out to a repair person to have the usual post-purchase-cla done on them to make sure and assure they would all be in tip-top shape? ...I ask cause sellers stretch the truth and stuff really isn't paid for in full until the CLA is paid...

#6. >>> YES

It's not offensive... and I appreciate your input greatly...

But here's the thing... I have a 100 year old motion film camera... works great... a 100 year old 616 camera... works great... a 60 year old 16mm reflex... works great... several medium format cameras built during WWII... all works like clockwork... not to mention countless 110 and 35mm SLRs from the 60s/70s I use frequently... and the Bronica ETRS and the other one, the "second revision, which are possibly 45 to 25 years old, need to be serviced?And just break on their own after a while for no reason? I've just never heard of such a thing. Unless if the manufacturer was planning on their gear failing and selling repair service - but hey, that's gotta be a bad business plan cause they don't exist anymore...
I believe the guy who sold the lens and said it worked, he included pictures he took with it... has 100% rating, why would he change and try to rip someone off suddenly?

 

[Pieter12]

Apples to oranges. I have no clue what cameras you are talking about and how much they have been serviced and used. It is not extraordinary for a 45 to 25 year old piece of photographic equipment to need attention, depending on its complexity and how it was used up to this point. Did you get a good deal on the equipment? Sometimes there is a reason for that--there is no free lunch.

 

[Danner]

Sounds like the lens-to-body electric contacts aren't functioning reliably. OTOH, I doll be dead wrong. Could also be one of the interlocks is wonky (lens to body, back to body, dark slide).

Hope you get it sorted out.

 

[MattKing]

Those Bronica 645 cameras were designed to serve the needs of wedding photographers and other professional photographers.
They were designed to provide accurate and consistent results in demanding circumstances.
And they were designed to be properly maintained through, among other things, regularly professional service.

 

[removed account4]

yea I use 130+ year old equipment all the time too, stuff's not complicated like you know .. a Bronica
old stuff and new stuff is like comparing a 1930s-70s vw bug with repairing something like a bmw 2002. sure i've rebuilt vw bugs, didn't take long, but i wouldn't touch a 2002.
I'd just pony up whatever it costs and get it CLA'd. seeing you want to use it not just wonder what's its not working right, right.
LOL. when pros were using / beating the heck out of that camera in 1980/1990s they'd have the body, back + the lenses CLA'd every 6-12 and have spare bodies &c, depending on you know, how much they were using it. I assisted a guy in 1988 who had hassles, not bronicas, no difference, he had 2 or 3 bodies and 4-5 backs + lenses ( if I am remembering right )
and stuff was always rotated out to be CLA'd...

have fun !

 

[reddesert]

Clearly the best way of dealing with this would be to take the whole batch of stuff to someone who is familiar with the ETRS system and have them look at it to diagnose it, even before repair. That might be difficult now that there are fewer physical stores, but you're in LA, I bet a place like Samy's has that experience.

But even before that - I personally have never used the ETRS, so I can't diagnose, but you have two of almost every part. You should be able to isolate the problem, but your presentation is confusing, so let's try to do it systematically. From what I can tell, you say, opening the back and looking for the shutter to open, that both bodies work fine with the 150mm lens, with the AE prism on A or M. First, verify that's true.
- Next, try the 200mm lens.
- Next, try the first 75mm lens, then the second.

If you run into a combination that doesn't work, write down what pieces didn't work: which lens, body, back, prism, and A/M setting.

If it's true that both bodies work with the 150mm in A and M, and neither works with either 75mm in A mode, then you have reason to believe that both bodies work and both lenses have problems (but whether that is due to an actual problem with the shutter or just the body-lens electrical contacts remains to be seen, etc).

BTW, the fact that one of the 75mm lens is difficult to mount might also be related.

 

[Sirius Glass]

When I buy lenses or cameras remotely, I assume that they will need servicing. Therefore if the seller cannot do a CLA, I will not pay top dollar for it. This is why I buy from B&H, Adorama, Samys and KEH. There are other places that I would buy from including here, but very rarely from eBay or private party.

 

[grat]

Your 100 year old cameras do not have electrical circuits with contacts that need to be cleaned and adjusted. Nor do they have a magnetic switch mechanism in their lenses to allow precise shutter behavior. And they don't have circuitry to manage auto-exposure.

Start with basics. Remove *all* accessories from a body. Get a sheet of paper and a writing implement. Write down each test and the result.

Test the winding function (Be sure to set multi-exposure on). Test the battery check light. Pick one lens. Set to 1S. Test fire. Watch through the back of the camera, verify that the shutter closes after 1 second. Repeat with next lens.

If all lenses work, then add a finder-- WLF, AE Prism, whatever you've got. Again-- check battery light, test fire with each lens in manual mode ("on" and "off", but only in "M" mode).

Now test the AE prism in AE mode ("on" and "AE")... Insert a dark slide (no, really), press down the shutter release button-- does it indicate the exposure speed? Now remove the back (and dark slide) and test fire-- does it fire at the correct speed?

Repeat with next body.

Be aware that leaving the AE prism attached, and "on" will eat the battery pretty quick, so always leave it "off" when not using the camera.

At this point, you should have a list of tested combinations, and how they work. If the information gathered doesn't leap out at you and suggest where the problem is, take that information, and contact Jimmy Koh at kohscamera (his english is so-so, but he's a very nice person-- I suggest being slightly less haphazard than you have here) and see if he has advice. He may, or may not (probably won't) be willing to look at your camera. You can try contacting a gentleman named Mike at phototronic.biz, who has one at least one occasion hinted he might be willing to work on a Bronica. Others may have suggestions as well.

 

[wiltw]

The ETRS should fire even with NO BATTERY...at a default speed of 1/500.
Try removing the AE prism, to ensure that it is not somehow causing the problem.

It is initially somwehat puzzling that 150mm lens works fine, but both 75mm lenses do not! That's why the idea of removing the metering prism for testing makes sense, since there is an apparent different in behavior in A vs. in M. Set on A, the prism circuit overrides the body shutter speed setting; set on M, the prism is not in the timing circuit. (Why the lens FL choice makes a difference is nevertheless puzzling.

My two ETRSi bodies still work properly...so age alone does not cause failure. The contacts are for TIMING the shutter...no electricity and it defaults to 1/500. Period.

 

[fabulousrice]

Thanks @grat and @reddesert (Antonioni reference?) for the super cool tips.

I did the tests you suggested, which was the procedure I couldn't think straight about, until you helped.

I did the tests with the AE-II viewfinder on throughout (because otherwise I cannot switch between A and M obviously), and there didn't seem to be a difference whether a back was mounted or not.
I'm happy running more tests to narrow down the issue if these tests sparks possible leads. I want to add that contacts between the viewfinder and bodies are sparkling clean, no signs of corrosion.

To the question "is there light visible from the back of the camera when firing?"

Bronica ETRS body first revision - battery is new - with AE-II viewfinder

A setting:

75mm lens (older purchase): Yes, hard to screw on/off. Fires intermittently: gets stuck after a few shots (shutter wouldn’t fire) - took off the lens, put it back on, fired again - light visible thru back. Red light in viewfinder sometimes goes on. No yellow numbers at the bottom of the viewfinder when pressing shutter lightly. When it works, lens aperture duration seems correct.
75mm lens (recent purchase): Sometimes, but sometimes not or duration wrong after a few shots.
150mm lens: Yes. No yellow numbers in viewfinder. Lens aperture duration seems correct.
200mm lens: Yes. No yellow numbers in viewfinder. Lens aperture duration seems correct.

M setting:

75mm lens (older purchase): Yes, hard to screw on/off. Fires intermittently: gets stuck after a few shots (shutter wouldn’t fire) - took off the lens, put it back on, fired again - light visible thru back. Exposure durations set are respected.
75mm lens (recent purchase): Yes. Lens aperture duration seems correct.
150mm lens: Yes. Lens aperture duration seems correct.
200mm lens: Yes. Lens aperture duration seems correct.

Bronica ETRS body second revision - battery is new - with AE-II viewfinder

A setting:

75mm lens (older purchase): No light visible from the back when firing. Shutter doesn’t get stuck. Pressing shutter lightly indicates a yellow number on bottom of viewfinder that changes depending on what the camera is aimed towards. No red light in the viewfinder.
75mm lens (recent purchase): Yes, most of the time, but sometimes no light at all. Constant red light in viewfinder. Aiming at a dark area doesn't keep the shutter open very long even if yellow number in viewfinder says 1/2/4/8s.
150mm lens: Yes. No red light in viewfinder. Yellow numbers in viewfinder. Longer exposure times are correct (lens stays open what the yellow number says when depressing shutter).
200mm lens: Yes. No red light in viewfinder. Yellow numbers in viewfinder. Longer exposure times are correct (lens stays open what the yellow number says when depressing shutter).

M setting:

75mm lens (older purchase): No light visible. Shutter doesn’t get stuck.
75mm lens (recent purchase): Yes. No red light in viewfinder. Accurate long speeds.
150mm lens: Yes. No red light in viewfinder. Longer exposure times are correct.
200mm lens: Yes. No red light in viewfinder. Longer exposure times are correct.

 

[fabulousrice]

The ETRS should fire even with NO BATTERY...at a default speed of 1/500.
Try removing the AE prism, to ensure that it is not somehow causing the problem.

It is initially somwehat puzzling that 150mm lens works fine, but both 75mm lenses do not! That's why the idea of removing the metering prism for testing makes sense, since there is an apparent different in behavior in A vs. in M. Set on A, the prism circuit overrides the body shutter speed setting; set on M, the prism is not in the timing circuit. (Why the lens FL choice makes a difference is nevertheless puzzling.

My two ETRSi bodies still work properly...so age alone does not cause failure. The contacts are for TIMING the shutter...no electricity and it defaults to 1/500. Period.

I just understood what tests you were implying in your comment - to test the body that sometimes stops firing without the viewfinder. I have not tried that in the above list of tests I did... I will try when the trigger becomes unresponsive next time and let you know. I'm starting to think the viewfinder might be the problem after changing the backs, the body, the lens...

 

[wiltw]

eBay is as good or as bad as the retailer/private citizen who lists stuff on eBay for sale! It is a bit like blaming the neighborhood newspaper who runs ads in its For Sale section.

 

[wiltw]

I just understood what tests you were implying in your comment - to test the body that sometimes stops firing without the viewfinder. I have not tried that in the above list of tests I did... I will try when the trigger becomes unresponsive next time and let you know. I'm starting to think the viewfinder might be the problem after changing the backs, the body, the lens...

To emphasize once again...dead battery (or dead prism electronics) and the shutter should open and immediately close 1/500 sec. later.
The timing circuit in the body, or the one in the AE prism while in A mode (but not in M mode) controls how long the shutter stays open...no circuit and it defaults to the mechanical speed 1/500 built into the shutter. The ETRS is a purely mechanical camera with no battery or bad electrical contacts...the arm at the bottom of the body triggers the shutter to open, and with no electrical control of shutter it defaults to closing at 1/500.

The blinking red light (if there is a live battery in the camera) indicates only CLOSURE of the shutter, but it has nothing to do with the opening of the shutter.

 

[fabulousrice]

eBay is as good or as bad as the retailer/private citizen who lists stuff on eBay for sale! It is a bit like blaming the neighborhood newspaper who runs ads in its For Sale section.

Please stay on topic. I'm not sure this comment is constructive, or would help anyone who finds this post in the future troubleshoot their equipment.
The question here is not "should I buy equipment online", I'm asking for precise help determining what parts of the equipment might or not work - how I got them is irrelevant, I could as well have inherited it and have the very same questions.
Also criticizing a behavior without suggesting a comparable alternative isn't productive either (and no, buying equipment for $2500 from a store that supposedly refurbishes equipment instead of $150 from a second-hand store or flea market is not a comparable "alternative" - I never bought faulty equipment from 100% sellers from eBay in over 20 years of purchasing there... ).

 

[fabulousrice]

To emphasize once again...dead battery (or dead prism electronics) and the shutter should open and immediately close 1/500 sec. later.
The timing circuit in the body, or the one in the AE prism while in A mode (but not in M mode) controls how long the shutter stays open...no circuit and it defaults to the mechanical speed 1/500 built into the shutter. The ETRS is a purely mechanical camera with no battery or bad electrical contacts...the arm at the bottom of the body triggers the shutter to open, and with no electrical control of shutter it defaults to closing at 1/500.

The blinking red light (if there is a live battery in the camera) indicates only CLOSURE of the shutter, but it has nothing to do with the opening of the shutter.

So if there is no electrical current coming from the battery, it should fire also at 1/500, not get stuck, right?

 

[wiltw]

Please stay on topic. I'm not sure this comment is constructive, or would help anyone who finds this post in the future troubleshoot their equipment.
The question here is not "should I buy equipment online", I'm asking for precise help determining what parts of the equipment might or not work - how I got them is irrelevant, I could as well have inherited it and have the very same questions.
Also criticizing a behavior without suggesting a comparable alternative isn't productive either (and no, buying equipment for $2500 from a store that supposedly refurbishes equipment instead of $150 from a second-hand store or flea market is not a comparable "alternative" - I never bought faulty equipment from 100% sellers from eBay in over 20 years of purchasing there... ).

My reply is mistakenly misdirected! It was intended to be a response to someone else's post,

" really, really don't get the anti-eBay vibe of photrio. eBay is head and shoulders above any other option, especially the Japanese sellers. They beat KEH on quality of service, speed of shipment, return policy and (often) price."
​

BTW, I have twice been sold defective product via a seller on eBay, including one time in recent months in buying two replacement rechargeable batteries for my drill/driver. Both immediately failed on first use, and both would not take any charge...red blinking light on the original charger! I stand by my statement, it is the retailer to blame.

 

[wiltw]

So if there is no electrical current coming from the battery, it should fire also at 1/500, not get stuck, right?

EXACTLY! No prism on camera, no battery in camera, the shutter should open and close at 1/500 every time and you see light at the film gate.(and no blink of red light in viewfinder indicating shutter closure).

 

[Sirius Glass]

Samy's used to be quite good, but currently their prices are insane. They have 150mm CF lens "for parts" for $400, for example. Also, what do you mean by "cannot do a CLA"? Samys and KEH sell non-serviced equipment, AFAIK they don't lubricate anything before selling. The 503cx kit that jammed on me came from KEH.

I really, really don't get the anti-eBay vibe of photrio. eBay is head and shoulders above any other option, especially the Japanese sellers. They beat KEH on quality of service, speed of shipment, return policy and (often) price.

Some sellers, store will or are able to do CLAs. Those are the ones I will buy from. Not all eBay sellers are good; not all eBay sellers are bad. I rather stick with sellers on Photrio or Large Format Photography. I do not have any experience with Japanese sellers and I have not commented on them either way.

When I buy from Samys, I am in the store and can test the item. If it is a Hasselblad related item, I have them take it to the Hasselblad repairman and he checks it out for me. All of this is done before I reach for the wallet.