The Longevity of dSLRs

My D40X gets kicked around, thrown in the trunk without a case, shoots in the rain, dropped, had lenses wrecked due to sand...

I have to say, i'm always impressed by Nikon build quality.

Also, for an old camera, it constantly makes beautiful images.
I've had friends have Canons break down, but never seen a Nikon up and die.

So much to respond to.

The high end DSLR's have guaranteed shutter actuations (for example my 5D Mk II gets 150,000 guaranteed or they will replace/repair for free). I've never had a problem and I had one of the first models off the shelf. The only repair I've had was just now because I went out and spent 4 hours in the rain on the beach shooting Hurricane Sandy and salt water penetrated the upper trigger mechanism, the camera was completely dead, and everyone told me i was screwed, after sending it to canon and only $207 to replace the entire assembly



Now as far as parts go, I'm surprised at Leica not having extra replacement sensors. I know for sure that canon stock piles repair parts for decades... I have a canon 1V (film) they still had brand new parts for that. Yes it's true I only expect the 1D and 5D series to be supported, you get what you pay for, it only benefits manufacturers to support the pro line. That said I'm sure 10 years from now if I really wanted to I could get replacement parts for my 5D II.

So as I said before I agree that actuations are the main failing point for any camera and the high end ones are guaranteed for X amount of them (I think the new ones are up to 300,000).

The parts will be there for the high end ones

And though water sealing is good, only the BEST cameras have the BEST sealing... Hence why my 5D failed after 4 hours, while my 2 L series lenses and my 1V did not because the 1V and lenses were the BEST of the line, where the 5D was just a bit less... However, it was a damn hurricane and I was out there for 4 hours before any issue arose, and I had just gotten crushed by a 25 foot wave that came over a wall and right down on top of me, so it's basically like as if I decided to go underwater diving and only 1 of the 4 pieces had any damage, that's pretty damn good.... I'd like to see any older film camera survive that...

You get what you pay for, but a laptop from walmart for $400 and you get viruses and a failed drive in 2 years or less, but an Apple MacBook for $3,000 and 6 years later and 4 OS upgrades and it still runs fast...

If you are going to spend a lot of money (35mm money not medium format DSLR money) and want a long lasting camera, get a Canon or Nikon, it's not that they are BETTER than Leica or Pentax or Sony, but the infrastructure is there, they have more money to support larger storage facilities and larger repair houses and have a larger customer base so they are able to sustain those extra things, unlike Leica which is a fairly small company and probably why they don't even stockpile digital sensors (which still shocks me a little bit, I hope you pushed the issue with them, I would have demanded they replace it or upgrade you to the newest model that they still had for the price of what a repair would cost, Leila's are silly money and I would be furious if that happened to me...

Lastly, for a while, the upgrade craze had more to do with the megapixel craze than in longevity failure. And to a certain extent, for the pro's that was mostly customer driven, most customers I had would demand higher megapixel cameras before even talking to me, even if they didn't know how big an 8mp image or 12mp image could actually be made into, just that it was the best thing and they wanted that. So I went from a 40D to a 5D. I was perfectly happy with 14mp and a self cleaning sensor, but the customer wanted more. Now that its been a few years I'm glad I upgraded for other reasons (including the body / weather sealing, full frame sensor so L series lenses worked like they were supposed to, and other functions I only needed as I got better lighting, better jobs, and better as a photographer.

Hmm I think that's about all I have to say for now (and I know that was a lot, sorry for such a long post).


~Stone

The Noteworthy Ones - Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1 / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic

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Cameras will either get technologically obsolete, they will have component failures, or they will have failures due to the environment. Any of these will affect longevity, and none are predictable. DSLRs can lose connectivity over time (USB is becoming obsolete, in 5 years it may go the way of SCSI). CF and SD cards are also moving to obsolescence. And even old film cameras - film... So even if the camera remains intact, its longevity will be limited by the technological choices made in its original design.

Component failures are a function of the component design. Old film cameras tend to be fairly simple, electronically. Many can still be usable in the face of total electrical failure (eg, the Nikon FM3a, and the fully mechanical older Nikon FM cameras). Those cameras are at the mercy of their mechanical designs, and frequently such systems can be repaired independent of the original manufacturer (there are some very talented camera restoration guys floating around). Electrically, older circuits are larger and simpler. They tended to be rugged, but will eventually fail. These too can frequently be repaired independent of the manufacturer, because the systems are relatively simple.

Newer cameras are far more complex electrically. Because the systems are so tightly integrated (whole systems built into one chip) it is very difficult for anyone, including the manufacturer, to repair individual components. They will replace the entire subsystem or the entire camera instead. These cameras are far more intricately at the mercy of the manufacturer for replacement parts and repair knowledge. I think this inherently reduces their longevity.

The Nikon F5 has as an alternate power source a custom pack of NiMH rechargeable batteries. This unit is proprietary to Nikon, and is no longer made. This pack is also the only way to get a full 8 fps from the camera (the pack has an extra battery that boosts voltage up over what you can get from a set of AA batteries). Nikon no longer makes this custom pack, and those that remain in the field are certainly worn out, thus worthless. So from a power perspective, the F5 has reached a point of no recovery. It is still a perfectly usable camera, just not at 8fps. It will remain relevant as long as 35mm film remains available.

Environmentally, all cameras are subject to corrosion and the abuse of being bounced around in the world. Cameras with less built-in ruggedness, and less environmental sealing will certainly fail sooner than the more rugged "pro level" cameras. But I still sometimes shoot a pretty little '70s era Oly 35RD, and though clearly a consumer focused camera, it appears to have plenty of life left in it.

Long story short, there are many factors affecting longevity. There is no simple, or single, answer to the original poster's question.

I do expect a camera to last for a long long time but reading Chuck's post he reminded me of the vunerable of today's cameras are their batteries. Camera manufacturers keep introducing new batteries with new model of cameras that mean replacement batteries for older model will be hard to find. And rechargeable batteries will die for sure and rather sooner than later.

Indigo said:

I do expect a camera to last for a long long time but reading Chuck's post he reminded me of the vunerable of today's cameras are their batteries. Camera manufacturers keep introducing new batteries with new model of cameras that mean replacement batteries for older model will be hard to find. And rechargeable batteries will die for sure and rather sooner than later.

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Well again with the top tier ones it's not so much a problem because they are built for professionals and so all the top tier cameras come with an optional battery grip which holds 2 of the camera systems rechargeable batteries but it ALSO accepts a cartridge of AA batteries for those times when pro's are in another country and all that's available is AA's but for longevity purposes the AA battery will be around for a long time and you can always use those. Spend that extra money and buy a canon 5D II or III OR Nikon equivalent.


~Stone

The Noteworthy Ones - Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1 / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic

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StoneNYC said:

Well again with the top tier ones it's not so much a problem because they are built for professionals and so all the top tier cameras come with an optional battery grip which holds 2 of the camera systems rechargeable batteries but it ALSO accepts a cartridge of AA batteries for those times when pro's are in another country and all that's available is AA's but for longevity purposes the AA battery will be around for a long time and you can always use those. Spend that extra money and buy a canon 5D II or III OR Nikon equivalent.


~Stone

The Noteworthy Ones - Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1 / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic

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Click to expand...

Top tier camera like the Nikon D3/S/X and the Nikon D4 although accept 2 batteries but have no optional battery grip (because they are top tier so no optional battery grip). Although their batteries are good they will die or seriously dimmish their capabilities in about 2 years. I don't expect rechargable batteries to last more than 5 years. So unless you can be sure that you can get replacable batteries for them they are no good in 10 year or so. Now I don't think any of these high end camera would be dead in 10 years except for the batteries.

I think that it's too early to say much about the longevity of D-SLRs. They haven't been around for that long. And even more importantly than that, the point at which they all pretty much reached a certain level of quality that made "upgrades" meaningless for me was reached just a few years ago. The only reason I'll ever "upgrade" from my D700 is if it breaks. It offers more than I will ever use; it's the perfect digital camera for me. Anything else added to it would just be stupid IMO.

My 10D is still working fine after nearly 10 years. It has got a bit ragged in a few areas. The on-board flash no longer synchs, but that's no biggie, as I almost never use it anyhow. The shutter button has to be stabbed, or hit at just the right angle, and that is kind of a PITA. I use it as a second body now, so I really don't care to spend the money to get these things fixed. I might do it eventually, if I ever start shooting heavily again. Despite a few issues, the camera seems to be far from being half dead. So, I trust that if the files and batteries remain compatible as the years go on, I can get at least 20 years out of it. And that's a measly consumer level body. Pro bodies will fare even better.

Indigo said:

Top tier camera like the Nikon D3/S/X and the Nikon D4 although accept 2 batteries but have no optional battery grip (because they are top tier so no optional battery grip). Although their batteries are good they will die or seriously dimmish their capabilities in about 2 years. I don't expect rechargable batteries to last more than 5 years. So unless you can be sure that you can get replacable batteries for them they are no good in 10 year or so. Now I don't think any of these high end camera would be dead in 10 years except for the batteries.

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I know the 1V comes with an optional battery cartridge, because when both my rechargeable a died I started using then haha. However I did some research, I suppose you are right, which is strange that they no longer provide that even canon doesn't seem to have one, but the rechargeable batteries seem smaller than the 1V so it might just be a space issue, not enough room for 8 AA batteries.

I guess I lose, haha but I think anyone who really needs the upgrade from the 5D to the 1D series (an increase of $3,000+ additional dollars for only a few additional features) you probably aren't keeping that camera more than 5 years as your job is obviously demanding enough that you would need to upgrade anyway.

Well, suffice to say the point is mute, I was wrong about the top tier cameras.

I guess buy a 5D instead? Haha




~Stone

The Noteworthy Ones - Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1 / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic

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Oh additionally, I can still buy a rechargeable 1V battery if I wanted to as canon still has extras, I just don't use it enough to spend the money.

2F/2F said:

I think that it's too early to say much about the longevity of D-SLRs. They haven't been around for that long. And even more importantly than that, the point at which they all pretty much reached a certain level of quality that made "upgrades" meaningless for me was reached just a few years ago. The only reason I'll ever "upgrade" from my D700 is if it breaks. It offers more than I will ever use; it's the perfect digital camera for me. Anything else added to it would just be stupid IMO.

My 10D is still working fine after nearly 10 years. It has got a bit ragged in a few areas. The on-board flash no longer synchs, but that's no biggie, as I almost never use it anyhow. The shutter button has to be stabbed, or hit at just the right angle, and that is kind of a PITA. I use it as a second body now, so I really don't care to spend the money to get these things fixed. I might do it eventually, if I ever start shooting heavily again. Despite a few issues, the camera seems to be far from being half dead. So, I trust that if the files and batteries remain compatible as the years go on, I can get at least 20 years out of it. And that's a measly consumer level body. Pro bodies will fare even better.

Click to expand...

Also, you can send the 10D to canon and get all of that fixed


~Stone

The Noteworthy Ones - Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1 / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic

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No way I will send it to Canon. I have a local guy who can probably fix it for 25% of the Canon price. They are out of hand. Factory service is a complete ripoff. Makes no sense on a camera worth less than $200 on the used market. Free warranty repair? Sure. But at no other time. I used to take my cameras down there for free sensor cleaning, but they don't offer that any more.

2F/2F said:

No way I will send it to Canon. I have a local guy who can probably fix it for 25% of the Canon price. They are out of hand. Factory service is a complete ripoff. Makes no sense on a camera worth less than $200 on the used market. Free warranty repair? Sure. But at no other time. I used to take my cameras down there for free sensor cleaning, but they don't offer that any more.

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I didn't know they offered that, probably before the sensors cleaned themselves.

Anyway I thought for replacing the entire trigger/wheel/button circuitry and new top frame for only $207 was a bargain after it got salt water inside, I was expecting $800+

But I suppose for a 10D it's not worth as much but my local guy charges MORE than canon, they would have charged me $100 just to look at it... Canon will look for free.

Ah we'll... glad you can keep it alive either way.


~Stone

The Noteworthy Ones - Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1 / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic

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I'm a little confused. Isn't the Canon 1V a film camera that uses the 2CR5 6 volt battery? Since those are available from many sources, even as rechargeables, I am uncertain why the battery life for this camera is a concern?

I do agree that there will likely come a time that the proprietary rechargeable batteries from the various manufacturers for their cameras will get tough to find, but even in those cases there are tons of 3rd party sources for batteries and chargers for these cameras. I am not even using Canon original batteries for my 1Ds any longer. The 3rd Party batteries are quite reliable and I can buy 3 of them for the price of one OEM battery. Even if one fails early (a horrendous failure rate btw) I am still way ahead on cost. In my humble opinion the OEM batteries will go the way of the dodo far before the 3rd party sources stop making them. And the reason for that will be market response to outrageous OEM prices, not a lack of demand.

As for the argument that the upper tier cameras will last longer, I think that is just wishful thinking. While I do agree that they were probably better built than the lower tier gear, they are also chock full of extra goodies and features and these increase the chances that something will go wrong. The advantage to pro bodies and lenses are not necessarily longevity, they are the availability of parts and service that may not be available for the lower tier cameras. But that service does not come cheap, and there comes a time when it is just not cost effective to fix them, particularly when they are out of warranty.

Personally I'll place my bets on a well cared for, moderately used, mid tier offereing from any of the big names.

Pioneer said:

I'm a little confused. Isn't the Canon 1V a film camera that uses the 2CR5 6 volt battery? Since those are available from many sources, even as rechargeables, I am uncertain why the battery life for this camera is a concern?

I do agree that there will likely come a time that the proprietary rechargeable batteries from the various manufacturers for their cameras will get tough to find, but even in those cases there are tons of 3rd party sources for batteries and chargers for these cameras. I am not even using Canon original batteries for my 1Ds any longer. The 3rd Party batteries are quite reliable and I can buy 3 of them for the price of one OEM battery. Even if one fails early (a horrendous failure rate btw) I am still way ahead on cost. In my humble opinion the OEM batteries will go the way of the dodo far before the 3rd party sources stop making them. And the reason for that will be market response to outrageous OEM prices, not a lack of demand.

As for the argument that the upper tier cameras will last longer, I think that is just wishful thinking. While I do agree that they were probably better built than the lower tier gear, they are also chock full of extra goodies and features and these increase the chances that something will go wrong. The advantage to pro bodies and lenses are not necessarily longevity, they are the availability of parts and service that may not be available for the lower tier cameras. But that service does not come cheap, and there comes a time when it is just not cost effective to fix them, particularly when they are out of warranty.

Personally I'll place my bets on a well cared for, moderately used, mid tier offereing from any of the big names.

Click to expand...

Oh yea!! Haha I just realized I have the optional battery grip for the 1V that allows 10fps shooting (yea a whole roll gone in -3 seconds...) it had a proprietary canon battery but also came with optional AA battery cartridge... I don't take it apart as its not like a 5D it actually melds with the camera with water/dust seals and completely replaces the grip that takes the 2CR5 or whatever battery it used to take.

I lose twice! Lol


~Stone

The Noteworthy Ones - Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1 / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic

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"RIPPPPP"

Yeah, I have the same battery grip, but I don't use it much anymore because I really don't have a lot of need for 10fps on film, or digital for that matter. I did do it once though, just to say I did. It is like a two second "ripppp" and then it starts rewinding. If you could get your hands on one of those large film backs that took rolls of 250 frames it may have been worth it, but for most amateurs like me it is just a bit scary!!

Pioneer said:

Yeah, I have the same battery grip, but I don't use it much anymore because I really don't have a lot of need for 10fps on film, or digital for that matter. I did do it once though, just to say I did. It is like a two second "ripppp" and then it starts rewinding. If you could get your hands on one of those large film backs that took rolls of 250 frames it may have been worth it, but for most amateurs like me it is just a bit scary!!

Click to expand...

I didn't know they made backs that could take that wow! How long is that? Lol

I use the grip because I like shooting vertical and it has the button on the grip for that, it had nothing to do with the battery issue.




~Stone

The Noteworthy Ones - Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1 / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic

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Oh yeah. Leica made one, the Leica 250. So did Nikon for their Nikon F4. I know that Olympus had one for the OM-1 and Pentax for the LX. I can't believe that Canon didn't have one, though it may not have been made for the 1V. They were actually fairly common accessories for professional cameras back in the day.

I don't know how long the film was but I would guess it had to be around 12 feet to get 250 frames of 35mm.

I suspect that packing one around would have been a challenge so they probably didn't stray far from the studio.

Pioneer said:

Oh yeah. Leica made one, the Leica 250. So did Nikon for their Nikon F4. I know that Olympus had one for the OM-1 and Pentax for the LX. I can't believe that Canon didn't have one, though it may not have been made for the 1V. They were actually fairly common accessories for professional cameras back in the day.

I don't know how long the film was but I would guess it had to be around 12 feet to get 250 frames of 35mm.

I suspect that packing one around would have been a challenge so they probably didn't stray far from the studio.

Click to expand...

Cool


~Stone

The Noteworthy Ones - Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1 / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic

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Makes me want to buy some bulk tech pan... No way I'm spooling 35mm but 250 images I can spool that


~Stone

The Noteworthy Ones - Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1 / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic

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Since I mainly hang at APUG, it's been awhile since I have been here. I believe I have some information you need to consider in your "quest" for DSLR longevity.

It's call lead free solder. Remember all those Toyotas that had mysterious acceleration. Wiskers from lead free solder. Do a google search for more information, particularly the NASA study on the subject. It is good reading, particularly since we have more and more electronic devices in our homes. Bottom line is we should get a no questions asked 10 year life span out of our new electronics products, with pretty much guarantteed death before 20 years. The lead free solder wiskers will simply short something out and you won't be able to use this function or that before a sudden death (hopefully at the end). Notice how alot of your electronics or friends electronics are simply all of the sudden not working?

Perhaps someone here who works for Nikon could tell us that they use a small percentage of lead in their circuits, that would extent the lifespan tremendously, however, that would violate many, many environmental laws currently on the book. It just takes a little lead to prevent the growth.

So far, my Nikon D60 from around the 2008 timeframe is still working great and replacement batteries are available.....I just started having problems with shortened life from my original battery that was with the camera new. I plan on keeping it until it is dead.

Bob E.

Back the original question:
there must be something wrong with the Pentax *istD/DS/DS2/DL/DL2 line.
Recently i did a few Ebay searches, as i am looking for a third Pentax body, to be used for "macro hunting", and compatible with "true" TTL-flash (not P-TTL!).
The D/DS/DS2 models would allow me to use a multi-flash setup, with a dedicated real-time sensor, as i did with my LX.
I was surprised by the number of malfunctioning/repair/parts-only cameras i found on sale!
I didn't take the time to read the text of the auctions, so i can't remember which *istD variants were affected.
I have nothing against Pentax, BTW. Quite the contrary, in fact!
I own all the best analog bodies, from the K2 to the 6x7, and most (read: very close to "all" ) of their best manual focus lenses. Late 35mm AF bodies (like the Z-1), and early digital ones (K10D, K200D) are still working without a single hiccup.
I hope i made it clear enough... if i didn't, i can add that i loathe Canon (the F1 was a camera!), and that, while i appreciate Nikon (and i'd probably buy one, if i were a newcomer), I'm not too keen in following the crowds, at this point of my life.
That is: I shoot 8x10", but i don't own a Deardorff, even if a Century Universal ain't so cheaper.
Whatever, now that i'm cleansed from any suspect of being a Canikon follower i can't deny that the number of failures of *ist digital bodies are unusually high.
There must be some weak spot.
Maybe the failures show up only under some circumstances, but i can't elaborate, as i don't own one, and i haven't done any serious search about the subject.
I am personally interested though, as i want to buy one
Please chime in if you have some infos.

On a more general level, i can say that NO Pentax cameras ever failed on me, weather sealed or not, and that the two digital bodies are still working perfectly, even if they were purchased second-hand (and one of them had seen a lot of use).
I have the feeling that the weakest link in contemporary cameras is the lens.
At the root there is the big unsolved problem of electronic equipments (and electric cars): batteries!
Until there is a breakthrough in that technology, battery juice must be spared, so lenses must offer very low "drag" to the AF motor (and power-zoom).
On top of that, kit lenses must be economical, despite the fact that electronics are getting inside the objectives.
The result is under everybody's eyes: some lenses are so badly built that it's a marvel they don't fall apart.
At least Pentax makes a couple of cheap WR lenses. Poorly made as other makes, but at least sand and mist won't easily find their way inside the optic!

cheers

Paolo


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I have the canon 10D (for 10years now) and its still Alive never been to any service I have been traveling in all kind of weather. Dslrs are actualy not that bad. You just have to control your lust to new gear every year

nolanr66 said:

I have a Nikkon d200. It's the only digital camera I have ever owned not counting my cell phone.. I think it's about 6 years old currently and It is working fine so far. When I was buying the camera I was thinking of it as a 20 year camera. Honestly I was not thinking about upgrades and all that. I just figured I would buy it and shoot it for as long as it worked properly. It is still my plan. I do shoot 35mm camera's also but that is another topic. Anyway I still figiure on the 20 year plan and I will be very disappointed if the camera does not give me that service since the price was quite expensive.

Click to expand...

The d200 is a good camera. I have one and use it occasionally. The biggest drawback isits limitations in lower light since cameras of that vintage did not do well at higher ISO's. However with Photoshop cs5&cs6's improved noise control in raw you can get a pretty acceptable photo even at higher ISO's.

i have used Nikon DSLRs since 2003and never had one fail on me. i expect them to last about 10 years. my hasselblds on the other hand will probably last until they are 100 years old;same for my Nikon FMs.the only camerasever dying on me were a est german pracktika and a west german rollei35.

This may have been covered, but compared to your MX how much money / time did you save in
* film and processing
* scanner and scanner repairs
* learning more about your craft

?

ralphlambrecht said:

i have used Nikon DSLRs since 2003and never had one fail on me. i expect them to last about 10 years. my hasselblds on the other hand will probably last until they are 100 years old;same for my Nikon FMs.the only camerasever dying on me were a est german pracktika and a west german rollei35.

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Ralph, good to see you on DPUG as you promised elsewhere!

I have used Nikon DSLRs since 2005 and now on my 4th series (D70, D200, D700, D800) and none have yet failed - one D200 has 180K+ clicks on it and still going. But my first DSLRs were Fuji S2s and both failed well before 100K. These were a mongrelized Nikon film camera with Fuji (some say Sony) electronics and a dreadful dual battery system. When I look today at the image quality they produced, it was worse than that from a Canon Powershot point & shoot that I bought for fun photos not long after. Can't recall that I've owned a film camera that completely failed but to be fair they didn't take the number of frames that the digitals do (I don't count the Konica Autoflex T that got immersed in water for a week or two). OzJohn