The Leica Business

In the news agency my newspaper subscribes to, I came upon this photograph and the label beneath saying:

A classic Leica camera type M6 in front of the DAX stock chart in the stock market in Frankfurt Main, Germany, 01 August 2007. Traditional camera producer Leica is about to be taken from the stock market in 2008. Majority owner ACM will take over the company completely.

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Who can inform us about what that means and what the future holds for the company and their wondeful tools?

arigram said:

Who can inform us about what that means and what the future holds for the company and their wondeful tools?

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Well, they're moving to a new factory back in Wetzlar (next year, I think); they're investing heavily in R+D; and they're selling as many cameras as they did 40 years ago, after a long decline. The general mood when I was in Solms a couple of months ago was very upbeat indeed. Yes, they're a 'trophy' company, but taking them out of the stock market stops them being blown by the wind and allows them to plan for the long term. Zeiss's success is in no small part due to the fact that all shares are owned by the Zeiss Foundation, so the company does not have to dance to the stock market's tune. Many inside Leica believe that going public was the worst thing that ever happened to the company.

That might alter the value of the Ein Stück Leica.


Seriously, it would be nice if they had a film body using the faster M8 shutter. Even adding auto film advance, sort of like what the Konica Hexar RF used, would be a nice addition to the line-up. Call it an M9, or M7 high speed.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat
Dead Link Removed

HerrBremerhaven said:

That might alter the value of the Ein Stück Leica.


Seriously, it would be nice if they had a film body using the faster M8 shutter. Even adding auto film advance, sort of like what the Konica Hexar RF used, would be a nice addition to the line-up. Call it an M9, or M7 high speed.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat
Dead Link Removed

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If I were to buy a Leica today, it would be an MP. The M7 is already too much automation. The vertical travelled bladed shutter used in the M8 isn't neccessary. I think the value of the Leica in part because it doesn't change.

Chan Tran said:

If I were to buy a Leica today, it would be an MP. The M7 is already too much automation. The vertical travelled bladed shutter used in the M8 isn't neccessary. I think the value of the Leica in part because it doesn't change.

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I agree unreservedly -- and I use M2, M4-P, MP and M8.

As I know Leica is switcing whole development to digital cameras. M7 was the last "mechanical" camera they made. I am not sure they even make 'em any more, and probably they just sell the stock, or what is behind their NEW and improved slogan like: M8 (digital Leica) is what photographers wait for.
They support web site with Leica forum which is diying after they went digital.

It all around Leica looks much like what kodak did: they advertised competition. And Leica today as a company is just pale shade of they use to be. They copy Nikon and Canon and cannot see that digital technology is wooden leg to them. They will never ever be serious competitor to Nikon in digital world, and also do not see what is their stronghold. Bad, very bad generation in taday Leica. I do not know what it means returning to Barnack city as Roger said, but hope someone there got what is Leica all about.
It will be much easier and productive to make lenses for LF (couter to ZF), than to run after Nikon where they can get kick back into ass from runing Nikon. Better to them to make some good non-aspherical lens than to run where they do not belong.

www.Leica-R.com

Daniel_OB said:

As I know Leica is switcing whole development to digital cameras. M7 was the last "mechanical" camera they made.

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No. The M7 is electronic. The MP is completely mechanical. Both are in production. Yes, they sell more M8s than film cameras. So?

See also post #2 above. They are selling lots of cameras. The majority are digital (M8). A very substantial minority use film (M7, MP). I was there a couple of months ago and I don't believe they rejigged the production lines just for my visit.

yes M7 has electr. shuter and meter. But rewinding knob with gears, manual focusing, and no "buttons", Leica feel, old design viewfinder, use of deep-drawing metal as 50 years ago, I associate with mechanical camera today. M7 is just less mechanical than MP, even I would never trust to M7 as to M3 or MP.
As for M8 sells well I think it is a jerk from Leica lenses owners and Leica-maniacks. They just have absolute zero chance in that market. Who are their target market: people that actually are not photographers but colectors, and what for is M8? it just cannot do anything more or better than even Nikon Coolpix can do? Leica cameras actually never counted as nothing more than a camera that can use Leica lenses.
Roger, development speed and cost of dig cameras, made in Japan, is something strange in Euro-world. Leica cannot make it.

Again, I hope return to Wetzlar (did not know it) will open their eyes, and now I love my Wetzlar enlarger better than yesterday.

www.Leica-R.com

Daniel_OB said:

As for M8 sells well I think it is a jerk from Leica lenses owners and Leica-maniacks. They just have absolute zero chance in that market. Who are their target market: people that actually are not photographers but colectors, and what for is M8? it just cannot do anything more or better than even Nikon Coolpix can do? Leica cameras actually never counted as nothing more than a camera that can use Leica lenses.

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Have you used an M8? Or an MP? Or a Coolpix? Or read the following account of using M8s in American Photo? Dead Link Removed

Also, there are several cameras on the market that can use Leica M-fit lenses, from Leica themselves, Zeiss Ikon and Voigtlander. As one reviewer said (I apologize to you and to him for losing his name), if all three cameras were made by the same company, their prices would reflect their positions in the market.

Roger thanks for the link but I do not read advertising. That one is for consumer with deep pocket.
And Yes I did use all of that cameras you ask me (shortly). I would not use M8 for anything more than to shoot my stuff for insurance purpose, just the same as any coolpix. If you disagree can you please say what is value in M8 more than $5000? By the way look at details in highlight and deep shade. CCD is a barrier to their lenses, and always will be, but some like more red-dot to be seen with than nice details on the neg. I do not have anything against dig cameras, I use them when I can and have to, but $5000 for it. If M8 is $50 I might be get one, but still do not like its size.

www.Leica-R.com

M8

Roger, you are right on re the M8. It is a tremendous camera, but then again this is an 'analog' site isn't it. Big discussion on LUG re the M8 producing MF quality prints - it does! Leica will now survive; it wouldn't have with the film only market. I use, and love, both the M7 and M8. Each has it's own use. Tonight I shoot fine figure nudes with both! And a Contax AF 645 film camera. Will be busy in digital and dark-rooms rest of week.
Steve
PS: Roger I love your articles in Shutterbug! Keep up the good work!

M8 is a tremendous camera. M8 is a great camera. M8 is very good, excellent, better, no match, ....

These are all vague terms and means nothing. Guys, a pin hole camera is better than any Leica if one prefer what it produces. Is weight of M8 camera tremendous comparing to weight of my RAV4 car, or the word Mega... make it so, or what else you mean?
That prefixes to Leicas made me always to think that guy actually do not know at all value of that cameras so express his investment in a such words as tremendous, great,... , and make him feel better after loosing $5000.

M8 producing MF quality prints Ah this is a news. Camera do not make a print quality. But well might be Leica does. Or you say your MF prints are nothing better than from M8. Too bad.

www.Leica-R.com

Daniel_OB said:

If you disagree can you please say what is value in M8 more than $5000?

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It takes the picture when you press the shutter, unlike a Coolpix, and it's a pleasure to use, very unlike a Coolpix. It's the only half-affordable digital camera (under $10,000 US) that I actually enjoy using: 'affordable', 'digital' and 'quality' are words seldom found in the same sentence. And it's smaller and lighter than the nearest competition, Hasselblad, and I already have the Leica lenses. I use M8 and MP all the time and like both very much.

You are perhaps being slightly unfair to dismiss the link as unalloyed advertising.

boilerdoc said:

Roger, you are right on re the M8. It is a tremendous camera, but then again this is an 'analog' site isn't it. Big discussion on LUG re the M8 producing MF quality prints - it does! Leica will now survive; it wouldn't have with the film only market. I use, and love, both the M7 and M8. Each has it's own use. Tonight I shoot fine figure nudes with both! And a Contax AF 645 film camera. Will be busy in digital and dark-rooms rest of week.
Steve
PS: Roger I love your articles in Shutterbug! Keep up the good work!

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Dear Steve,

Glad you like the articles. I'll keep 'em coming as long as George (the editor) will buy 'em -- and I assume you know www.rogerandfrances.com.

You're right about Leica's survival. If the M8 is what it takes to keep the MP in production, God bless the M8. The fact that the M8 is a great camera is a bonus, though I'm not sure about 'MF quality prints' -- anyone who believes that must never have used MF, be it film or high-megapixel (18+).

Cheers,

Roger

Roger, sorry for disageement with you. Leica M8 never can be "pleasing" as M6 and earlier. It is "Leica feel" in question which does not nothing in common with M8. Have to go for now, but if what is Leica feel is a question, I will post tomorow what is meaning of it (even I am 100% sure you know what is it).

www.Leica-R.com

Daniel_OB said:

Roger, sorry for disageement with you. Leica M8 never can be "pleasing" as M6 and earlier. It is "Leica feel" in question which does not nothing in common with M8.

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Well, MP anyway (I never liked the M6 much, and the M4P is the worst Leica I have ever owned). But I'd say that the 'Leica feel' is there in the M8, just in significantly smaller quantities than a film Leica.

No way, the M8

I'm primarily a Leica R user and have a plethora of R lenses and cherish their quality. I occasionally use my M6 TTL and like it too. However, I didn't buy the digital attachment for my R8 because of its absurd $5,000+ cost and I don't intend to switch to digital imaging capture because I LOVE film so much. But if Leica creates a completely digital R camera with a sensible price I might consider buying it for some purposes. Meanwhile, I don't intend to buy the adapter ring that would allow me to use my R lenses on one of their recently released small digital cameras because of the horrid reduction in the sensor's image size compared to 35mm. I say 'horrid' because I've also shot large format (8x10 and 4x5) and was amazed by the detail in the images and the thought of going to less than the 35mm film measurement is distasteful! Mind you, I have a right to make this decision and it is okay if it is not identical to yours!

Terry

Roger, this is the story what is that Leica feel:

Turning film winding lever makes many gears inside the camera to turn. Gear ratio and whole gears train distribution inside well designed camera housing make specific resistance and its feel on our finger.

Sound coming out of the housing due to gear movement is due to gear vibrations which is transferred to gear shafts, from shafts to shafts bearings, from shaft bearings to housing whose final vibration make what we hear as gear movement. Also vibrations from gear shafts is partially transferred to winding lever and finally to our finger.

Now that vibration on the lever coupled with torque resistance on the same make very specific feel in the finger.

We are all afraid from unknown things and familiar with known past. It is also why old people cannot get new generation, they are problem to them, but past is known so they like it better. Old Egiptians used toothed wheels to water the lend. Later on, through the history it is converted to modern involute and cycloidal gears. Today gears are not any secret to us and nearly just anyone knows for them. However, still noise quality that metal makes when contacting each other depend of so many things that some gears when run make unpleasing noise, while noise of well designed and made gears can be music to ears.

The next is sound of mirror-slap and work of the shutter-blades. That movements are so well synchronized and vibration transferred to the housing so well damped that we hear nice music out of the housing.

So winding the film, sound from well designed, sized, heat-treated, and made gears, and sound from mirror and shutter (shutter only for M) are very unique to Leica. They did not design camera, they design camera for pleasing feel and sound.

And what is also very specific to Leica, and make Leica feel is that all that movements and sounds do not looks like coming out of camera, because it is so well designed that we cannot feel on the camera body that vibration is synchronized with sounds. It all looks like is coming from some distance outside the camera.

I cannot say for ergonomic but that four things are LEICA FEEL.

And Leica busts creativity, yes. Everyone once hear that sounds and want to hear it again. It is simple very nice secret music we can hear only out of Leica, it makes mud. If we add Leica lenses story can go and triple.

I am professional photographer, former PJ, and just cannot find use of that camera. I am very sure also that no professional photographer buy it because he really need it for job. There are out ther so many "cheap" cameras to do the same job, might and better. And when come shoot for pleasure M8 is out of order at all.

So now tell me what M8 makes to be Leica specific, except the Red Dot. I think, If the M8 is with price tag $30 just children will buy it. Plastic gears, if any,....

www.Leica-R.com

Daniel_OB said:

Roger, this is the story what is that Leica feel:

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There are several views on what gives 'the Leica feel'. Mine seems to be closer to the mainstream than yours, which is good news for the survival of Leica if not for those purists who are, in the French phrase, plus royalist que le roi; more royalist than the king, comme on dit en anglais.

If I ever start shooting digital at home, the M8 would be the one camera on the market that I would want. I can't justify it for work, which is mostly technical/scientific photography in the Lab. Nikon D1x's with one of each of Nikons Micro-Nikkors, F3HP, Polaroid SLR690, and O-Scope cameras are the tools of choice.

But an M8 would make it so much easier to check the focus on my RF lenses after rebuilding them. Put the S-Mount to M-Mount adapter on it for the Nikkors, and the Contax to M-mount for the Zeiss lenses, and of course LTM and M-Mount lenses. I'd probably use it for lens tests, the CCD being a constant between lenses rather than film from different batches and processing variables.

Don't forget, for the real Leica feel, the camera has to use Brass Gears- not those steel gears made to accommodate motor winders. Just doesn't feel the same. Just not as smooth as a CLA'd M3 or M2.

lens_hacker said:

Don't forget, for the real Leica feel, the camera has to use Brass Gears- not those steel gears made to accommodate motor winders. Just doesn't feel the same. Just not as smooth as a CLA'd M3 or M2.

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Undeniably true, which is why I postulate degrees of 'Leica feel'.

But forget about the M8 for lens testing. The 'airbrush look' from digital renders it worthless next to film. I know; I've tried. I still love the M8 -- but it ain't film.

How you guys test lens using one medium and applying it to another medium? How you test it at corners also for frames are not the same size?
I have "good" lenses and inspect my photographs not lens itself. The most critical in lens quality to me that "bokeh" which can be distracting. "Sharpness" can be influenced by so many things (developer acutance, grain can change perception of sharpness, enlarger alignment, enlarger lens (critical in most cases), film speed,...), and so on.

I can tell you guys that bokeh you just cannot test on one media and make conclusion acceptible to another medium. I experinced it so many times. Also bokeh is not something as constant for one lens, for it depend also of contrast and color of the adjacent areas. Bokeh change and one have to know his lens and how it performs in different scenes and light condition. Leica Apo-Macro-Elmarit 100 mm being the most stable "bokeh" lens I have ever seen.
And why so much time about "bokeh"? It is very essential and distigushing property of photography, among other, no other medium have as photography does. Bad "bokeh" is to me the most distracting think on a photograph.
And to consider $5000 camera just to test lenses? There are out there also so many tests if you like curves, and one also can buy such curves for some specific lens if wish, for just couple of dollars. On Leica site one can find them for free for all Leica lenses. Might be I am too poor for you so just cannot get it.

www.Leica-R.com

I use a through-the-lens Field Previewer to inspect that the focus is actually where the RF of the camera indicates that it should be. Got it on Ebay for $15 because know when else recognized what it was. Might be made by Canon back in the 50s, judging by the body cap and crinkle paint job. I always optimize for wide-open. I'll confirm the focus with a couple of test shots. I try a few close-ups with enough structure in the background to get a feel for the Bokeh and contrast. Once I know the lens will focus correctly, I note the "personality" of the lens and use it. I've probably got fifty 50's for the RF cameras.

Just got a roll back from a Helios-103 that I traded a few rolls of film for. I modified it, moved the rear-group in 0.4mm closer to the front group to change the focal length to match a Nikon S-Mount camera. Checked the focus on a Nikon S3 using a loupe at the film gate. What a FINE performing lens, lower contrast than my Nikkors. Gives some choice for the Nikons. Also mounted an I-61L/D into a J-8's mount and shimmed it for the Nikon. VERY SHARP! Tessar formula lenses originally made in Nikon S-Mount are extremely rare and expensive. They would pay for two or three M8's. My lens is probably sharper.

So yes, I would love to have an M8 to check the focus on my Russian lenses. I've also got an S-Mount adapter for the Leica.

Just as an example, I made a "really good" Collapsible Summicron and an "Interesting Different" collapsible Summicron out of one with some interior element damage, and a second with a destroyed front element- almost opaque.

It took me four iterations shooting with four different rolls of film to get it right. You just cant swap out elements and modules in these lenses, they were custom made on a per-lens basis. My first attempt was to just swap front modules, but the focal length ended up wrong. Lens worked at 4ft only.

Cherry blossoms are from the now good lens, the "interesting Different" is from the lens repaired using an $15 eye-glass re-coating kit.

My Collapsible Summicron "lens tests", close-up and Wide-Open.

Daniel_OB said:

And why so much time about "bokeh"? It is very essential and distigushing property of photography, among other, no other medium have as photography does. Bad "bokeh" is to me the most distracting think on a photograph.

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Some are far more sensitive to the quality of the out-of-focus image than others, and I don't think it has a thing to do with their other aesthetic sensibilities. In most cases, it is a very trivial part of a picture for me and for many others.