the further down the rabbit hole the more the devil is in the details

still makes no sense, but i guess if it makes sense to you that is all that counts.
i keep forgetting to use boiling water to make my tea, the pot comes from bang and oelfson
you woud think a $900 kettle would make better tea

John:
The problem is that for some it is a rabbit hole, while for others it is a tunnel of love.
High end equipment has certain qualities. Some of those qualities help when one is aiming at certain types of results.
It isn't a rabbit hole if the need for that particular type of results makes sense.
But needs and wants are often confused.
You do need to leave room for those who get joy from precision and technical qualities.
Just as they should leave room for those who get joy from softness and atmosphere and "feel".
And of course we should always consider the sage advice from Ms. Day .

MattKing said:

And of course we should always consider the sage advice from Ms. Day .

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oui !

We live in an era of data worship. At one time a 6 x 9 contact print from a box camera negative was all that people required. Now they don't want a picture of grandma riding the dodgems, they demand to know what lipstick she wore and how many stitches were in the hem of her dress. Digital cameras offer that facility, but it's still not enough, people want medium format cameras digital that'll make 8 ft prints and you can see the reflection in the eye of a passing bird. The fact nobody makes prints that size doesn't matter, it's the idea they can if they want to.

Unless you're framing your work - and how many shots are worthy of that in a lifetime? - there's an optimum size for viewing and storage, and it doesn't require 50 million pixels to meet it.

Sirius Glass said:

NOT BS. If you have good equipment you only have yourself to blame. Just because you do not agree does not mean the concept is wrong.

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Good equipment is any camera I can hold over a raging stream or take out in a blizzard or a street riot and not worry about its value or replacement. Bad equipment is any camera that stops me doing those things. Good equipment always takes the best photographs.

For a very long time I have held the view that a lot of people who buy a Leica give up on photography and just assume every picture is going to be good because they use a Leica, like low budget film makers who use their imagination to make fine films who then seem to loose it and later on when the hollywood multi millions arrive turn out crud.

hi harry

maybe you are right.
i don't know ...

i think people take a lot of things for granted, but i don't know if it is lack of imagination
or new-stuff making it easier to not think.
i don't know the film making industry but i would imagine it is kind of like any industry
( photography [commercial], music, &c ) where you need to eat so you eventually tame your creativity
so others will hire you and you get paid. that said, i think there are plenty of people in this world
who haven't allowed the commercial world hold them back, and are somehow able to pull it off.

david lynch's installment in this movie kind of speaks to that ...

https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=lumiere+and+company&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

Harry Stevens said:

For a very long time I have held the view that a lot of people who buy a Leica give up on photography and just assume every picture is going to be good because they use a Leica, like low budget film makers who use their imagination to make fine films who then seem to loose it and later on when the hollywood multi millions arrive turn out crud.

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That is an interesting point of view, but it does not have anything to do with reality. I have found that the Leica owners that I have talked with were knowledgeable about their equipment and photography in in general. I am not talking about people I meet when I am out and about, I sold cameras for many years.

I'm not sure that being knowledgeable about equipment and photography really protects anyone from falling into such a trap.

I've met more photographers in person and seen more online who have fallen into the "photos are perfect" trap, where every single frame they take is a marvel and absolutely wondrous, and we should all bow down to just how amazing and perfect it is... And that we should ignore the fact that it is a completely boring and lifeless shot of an uninteresting wall. - If we don't get how amazing it is, then we're clearly just not educated enough to 'understand' their art...


Anyone can be given a camera and take bad photos. But almost anyone can take good photos now and then. Most people can, with a little effort, learn take good photos on a consistent and regular basis. However few can take great photos, and fewer still can do it consistently. In my experience there are many people out there who have a hard time reliably judging where they stand.

Luckless said:

Anyone can be given a camera and take bad photos. But almost anyone can take good photos now and then. Most people can, with a little effort, learn take good photos on a consistent and regular basis. However few can take great photos, and fewer still can do it consistently. In my experience there are many people out there who have a hard time reliably judging where they stand.

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Are you qualified to reliably judge where they, or indeed you, stand?

jnanian said:

as the title suggests, the further we travel down the hole the more difficult it is to be satisfied with one's results.

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Not really. It is just bunch of gear heads with lack of talent, but gear as the hobby are dominating most of "photography" forums. Those ain't really photography, but gear heads forums.
You seems to overpaying attention what gear heads are up to. While majority has switched to mobile phones or Instax cameras and they taking and getting pictures more simple than ever. Majority of those who are taking pictures, not those who are dominating "photography" forums.

faberryman said:

Are you qualified to reliably judge where they, or indeed you, stand?

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Yes*.

* art is a highly subjective field. There will always be circles within art communities who share differing opinions, but each group has the right to their "obviously wrong" opinions.

I will make no claims to being an amazing photographer, but I am generally happy with how things are going for me in the hobby. Most of what I produce is good enough to usually at least be considered for presentation, however the majority I would very quickly pass up on in favour of a far smaller subset. I have about half a dozen or so images I feel are good enough to deserve hanging on a wall, but of those I think pretty much all of them will hopefully eventually make their way to a closet to make room for even better photos down the road.

Don't knock snapshots or snapshot cameras: http://time.com/3784650/bertien-van-manen-lets-sit-down-before-we-go/

Luckless said:

Most of what I produce is good enough to usually at least be considered for presentation, however the majority I would very quickly pass up on in favour of a far smaller subset. I have about half a dozen or so images I feel are good enough to deserve hanging on a wall, but of those I think pretty much all of them will hopefully eventually make their way to a closet to make room for even better photos down the road.

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Presentation to whom? Hanging on whose wall?

Ko.Fe. said:

Not really. It is just bunch of gear heads with lack of talent, but gear as the hobby are dominating most of "photography" forums. Those ain't really photography, but gear heads forums.
You seems to overpaying attention what gear heads are up to. While majority has switched to mobile phones or Instax cameras and they taking and getting pictures more simple than ever. Majority of those who are taking pictures, not those who are dominating "photography" forums.

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maybe, but i think there are people who aren't gearheads who still believe what the salesman/woman might tell them, that more expensive might be better quality
better ergonomics, easier to use without a "fight with the equipment" .. there are plenty of people whether they are in photography forums or hanging out with friends / family
who for whatever reason believe a bigger negative probably gives them a better photograph ... and an even bigger negative will give them an even better photograph ...
and new lenses are crap, and old lenses are the best. there are posts here on apug every few months or weeks about how wonderful leica lenses are, or how this 1854 french landscape lens
makes these negatives that are so 3 dimensional you think you are looking at a hologram. they aren't all gear heads.
sure larger cameras might give better negatives, and certain cameras might be easier to use and easier to use might mean less to think about and more photograph making.

maybe it is the idea that when we learn the basics we want better to prove to ourselves we are worth it, and have graduated to the next level? but the reality is there is no next level ... just more gear to be bought
and advice from friends, family, internet people ( real ones and 13 year old girls posing as a 60 year old retired pro ) and everyone else ... who love your work

maybe i am romanticising what it must have been like in like 1890
using film that seemed to have more contrast than midtones but still
people were able to make photographs with as much ease as someone putting tri x in a m3 and "souping it in d76 "...
and be extremely excited that the film and box camera worked, and you didn't need to pour your own wet plates,
or use a mamouth plate camera when you took the train to california from nyc and made photographs of the plains or mountains
and they looked as good as the pictures you saw in books.
i wonder if the very fact that it is so easy in 2017 to make a photograph ( by whatever means ) it it takes the thrill out of it

Photography is recovering from all kinds of shocks. The fact you didn't need a gun cotton explosion to prove your worth. That a hand held Ermanox could take pictures. That film could come in rolls. That a good camera didn't always mean German. That automatic exposure caught the correct exposure automatically. That a camera could be plastic and have a plastic lens and make art. That a sensor could capture a picture. Different people want freeze their idea of photography at different times, and they're fully entitled to do so.

hi blockend

don't get me wrong, it doesn't matter one bit what kind of camera someone uses to get their images
electronic, explosive, toxic fumes, point and shoot .. what i am suggesting is that the more sophisticated the
process or equipment the more dis-satisfied the user has the potential of becoming. s/he's using a camera/lens purchsed
by cashing in the gold brick burried in the back yard pat boone sold her/him 3 years before .. and s/he might be less satisfied
with the results. maybe its become more of a pain, more is riding on one's skills and the image, the same person uses
a ansco brick purchased at the thrift store for milk-money. its OK if it is just a snapshot, one's reputation isn't riding on the image;
one doesn't have to say "look at this masterpiece i made with this de golden busch 20x24 camera and lens !" the user might be content
with a fun snapshot made with simple camera.
the rabbithole might be expectations that once you go beyond ez, a snapshot might not be good enough. maybe the ohter end of the rabbithole
is a point and shoot camera that was discarded for the 20x24 when s/he one climbed into the rabbit hole ..

The photographer I flagged up in post 49 uses a point and shoot, and you won't find a copy of her books of snapshots for less £100 secondhand. Photography is essentially an exercise in connoisseurship, the appreciation of a good frame and a uncompromising edit and a consistent view of the world. Connoisseurship of equipment is the least important part of that process, but it's elevated among the highest because it's the easiest to attain - you simply throw money at the issue. People can spend their lives fixing the gear and never scratch the surface of the real problems.

jnanian said:

what i am suggesting is that the more sophisticated the process or equipment the more dis-satisfied the user has the potential of becoming.

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This doesn't make any sense to me. I typically become dissatisfied with equipment or processes that don't allow me the flexibility to achieve my goal. Growing into, rather than out of, the abilities of equipment and processes seems to me the better approach.

faberryman said:

This doesn't make any sense to me. I typically become dissatisfied with equipment or processes that don't allow me the flexibility to achieve my goal. Growing into, rather than out of, the abilities of equipment and processes seems to me the better approach.

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Humpff, we agree on something. So wonders never cease!

faberryman said:

This doesn't make any sense to me. I typically become dissatisfied with equipment or processes that don't allow me the flexibility to achieve my goal. Growing into, rather than out of, the abilities of equipment and processes seems to me the better approach.

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maybe different people's goals are different?
some people's goals ( stated or otherwise ) are to use and enjoy using whatever camera they are using
and images they make, wonderous or not so wonderous aren't part of the equation. others use specific cameras + processes
to achieve a specific goal. maybe the goal is to make PTPD prints, or to learn to do daguerreotypes or tintypes or gum-overs or ?
and in the end the point of doing the image making and camera use isn't to produce the best images one can make, but just to make images?
it seems that part of the draw to the original consumer cameras ( roll film? plates? ) was to make images, any images, have fun, and use a camera ...
before these first consumer cameras you had to be a wet plate photographer to do it, or a calotypist or something higher up on the ladder than the consumer photographer.
sure the cameras cost 4 months pay, but you were able to make a picture, have fun, get the camera and prints back in the mail, show your friends your results and have more fun with
another roll of film. THAT was the goal, nothing more than having a good time.
at a certain point the goal became more than that ...

What does any of that have to do with your statement that:

jnanian said:

what i am suggesting is that the more sophisticated the process or equipment the more dis-satisfied the user has the potential of becoming.

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to which I was responding?

becaiuse for some people, maybe not you, even though they have bought the most sophisticated equipment
and process, the spark that made them want to use a camera might disappear ...
and they forgot what it was like to just make a snapshot and be happy with just that.

i used to keep in touch with a guy, years ago who dove headlong into the rabbit hole.
he did the whole largeformat printed on azo "chuckwagon" as he called it ( LF/ABC pyro, DBI &c &c )
he wanted more, so he bought a ULF camera and took PT/PD workshops with a well known respected photographer, and learned not only PT PD printing
and ULF work but i believe he was even doing gum-overs ... ( maybe i imagined that, i know he was in the middle of it all, and the guy he took
workshops from was a master printer &c ) ... after a while it all fizzled out, he no longer was interessted in making exposures and told me he
knew he couldnt' be a photographer that did that sort of stuff, but maybe he could be a printer who did that sort of stuff ( paraphrased so i might be a little off )
and i am not sure how soon after that, he stopped altogether. i think last we spoke he was shooting 35mm and other smaller format images ...
i also know wet plate people who were making tons of beautiful wet plate images, prints, and plates and ambrotypes amd bromoilists and they got "burnt out" ...
some are just taking it slow with smaller formats others i am not sure what they are up to, i am not on fessbook, so i don't keep in touch with them like i used to.

sometimes the slow lane lets you smell the roses ?

Large format and some alternate processes like platinum/palladium, gum bichromate, and carbon transfer, are hard work. It is natural that some people find it is not for them. There are many others who find it immensely satisfying. This is to be expected.

jnanian said:

becaiuse for some people, maybe not you, even though they have bought the most sophisticated equipment
and process, the spark that made them want to use a camera might disappear ...
and they forgot what it was like to just make a snapshot and be happy with just that.

i used to keep in touch with a guy, years ago who dove headlong into the rabbit hole.
he did the whole largeformat printed on azo "chuckwagon" as he called it ( LF/ABC pyro, DBI &c &c )
he wanted more, so he bought a ULF camera and took PT/PD workshops with a well known respected photographer, and learned not only PT PD printing
and ULF work but i believe he was even doing gum-overs ... ( maybe i imagined that, i know he was in the middle of it all, and the guy he took
workshops from was a master printer &c ) ... after a while it all fizzled out, he no longer was interessted in making exposures and told me he
knew he couldnt' be a photographer that did that sort of stuff, but maybe he could be a printer who did that sort of stuff ( paraphrased so i might be a little off )
and i am not sure how soon after that, he stopped altogether. i think last we spoke he was shooting 35mm and other smaller format images ...
i also know wet plate people who were making tons of beautiful wet plate images, prints, and plates and ambrotypes amd bromoilists and they got "burnt out" ...
some are just taking it slow with smaller formats others i am not sure what they are up to, i am not on fessbook, so i don't keep in touch with them like i used to.

sometimes the slow lane lets you smell the roses ?

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I've gone the whole route..seems I make incredible images with simple TLR or my mamiya 6x7 camera...I love LF because I love the process but my BEST photos are coming out of these smaller formats. I don't give a rats arse what the process is; it's only the image on a piece of paper that counts.
and most wet plate photography sucks to me...boring boring boring...check out Ben Cauchi from the Inglebygallery.com in Wales and see some cool wetplate!! his stuff sells for 10,000 Euros!!