The definitive, legit facts about lens cleaning... Please!

Alex Benjamin · May 25, 2023

Bought a couple of cheap lenses recently. They were advertised as having "slight haze". Figured out this would be a good way for me to try out dismantling, cleaning and reassembling lenses.

So, went to our friend the Internet to get the lowdown on this. And discovered that if there are a whole bunch of charlatans now-a-days in the field of lens, cameras and film recommendations and reviews, it gets a hundred times worse in that of camera and lens repair.

For lens, camera and film, I'm sort of expecting an amateur or, in best of cases, a highly informed hobbyist, and I've learned to distinguish one from the other. For camera and lens repair, however, I'm expecting a pro: someone with tons of experience, who has done it before over and over again, who has had results not only for himself but for others. Alas, finding these is more difficult than I though. The level of charlatanism is staggering—at times I felt I was witnessing one of of the old traveling medicine shows where they were pushing cocaine to cure your tooth aches, or heroin for cough suppression. (It probably did cure it, actually, but not the way you'd want.)

So, I'm asking: what do you know the pros use most often to clean lens elements, for haze and for fungus? I'm asking for "10 out of 12 dentists use Crest" level here. The real deal.

Not this:

BrianShaw · May 25, 2023

How will you discern the difference between charlatanism and real deal truth if you don’t know the subject matter?

What’s really staggering is the amount of arrogance and self-fluffery on the internet, especially on camera forums it seems. And both cocaine and heroin really works against some ills when used in proper dosages!

And, and regarding Crest… I don’t believe the 9 out of 10 claim since my dentist doesn’t. LOL

Alex Benjamin · May 25, 2023

BrianShaw said:
How will you directness the difference between charlatanism and real deal truth if you don’t know the subject matter?

Oh, there are signs. Such as...

"People will tell you that it's complicated but I figured out a simpler way to do it."

"Pros will tell you to do this, but they've been wrong for years."

"I got this secret formula from a pro who used to work for..."

"I know people use X all the time, but I've been using Y with just as much success."

"Here's my secret."

"This next part might sound a little counterintuitive, but trust me, X is the way to go..."

"Pros take a few hours doing this, but with my trick, you'll be done in minutes."

"EASY!"

And I'm not even mentioning the guy obviously trying to figure it out as he's filming himself telling you how you should do it.

YouTube is full of this stuff.

BrianShaw · May 25, 2023

Yep… YouTube… often not a good signal-to-noise ratio.

Have you looked at these Photrio threads? There seem to be a mix of both types of folks responding.

How to remove haze from lens elements?

I have tried optics cleaner and a lens wipe and I got most of this stuff off but theres still a small film......its a cheap lens I got to hone my lens repair skills and I managed to successfully get it apart and mostly clean it but I still have this small film.

www.photrio.com

Lens Haze Repair

Seem to have a slight issue with some haze on the rear element from a Minolta Autocord I'm restoring. Any idea on how to get rid of it. I have tried vinegar to no avail. Lens looks good until Vinegar dries up. Element is smooth to touch. Any ideas?

www.photrio.com

The question is quite a reasonable and not unusual question.

Alex Benjamin · May 25, 2023

BrianShaw said:
Yep… YouTube… often not a good signal-to-noise ratio.

Have you looked at these Photrio threads? There seem to be a mix of both types of folks responding.

How to remove haze from lens elements?

I have tried optics cleaner and a lens wipe and I got most of this stuff off but theres still a small film......its a cheap lens I got to hone my lens repair skills and I managed to successfully get it apart and mostly clean it but I still have this small film.

www.photrio.com

Lens Haze Repair

Seem to have a slight issue with some haze on the rear element from a Minolta Autocord I'm restoring. Any idea on how to get rid of it. I have tried vinegar to no avail. Lens looks good until Vinegar dries up. Element is smooth to touch. Any ideas?

www.photrio.com

The question is quite a reasonable and not unusual question.

Hi Brian

Yes, I did. But too many different answers I don't know if I can trust. Just on the first page of the second thread, I go from Windex to Listerine to toothpaste to Simichrome to Flitz (whatever that is). I'm sure some of these work fine, but I'm in no mood to experiment, as I would with different film/developer combos (the lenses were cheap, but not that cheap!). That's why I'm asking if anybody knows what professional CLA people use regularly.

runswithsizzers · May 25, 2023

I am trying to think of the last time anyone got a definitive answer to a question around here. ;-)

Dan Daniel · May 25, 2023

Have you searched through telescope forums and discussions? I find the people paying $8000 for a two lens device and who advertise items for sale where 'never been cleaned' is a positive attribute can be very knowledgeable on optical engineering (never been cleaned' meaning there is not chance of microscratches which can be the difference between seeing details or not in the night sky).

I've seen mention over the years of a fluid used by Leica techs for cleaning haze. Not sure if this a specific formula for a specific issue with specific Leica lenses. Leica lenses have both a cult and money, a combination can lead to esoteric knowledge and techniques. Contact some and see what they say.

Personally I see it as an issue of increasing strength and also different types of solvents work for different materials to be dissolved. Some haze on lenses is oil and gas from the shutter, and naphtha can be effective to start. Alcohol works. ROR lens cleaner. Eclipse lens/sensor cleaner. Acetone. Ammonia. Breath fog (warm water). Xylene can help but smells like it will dissolve brain cells from 50 feet so raises safety issues. Four main classes- water, alcohol, ammonia, petroleum. I've seen acetone do nothing and alcohol clean the same thing in one wipe; oil versus fat?

If the coating itself has taken on a haze, not sure what the answer is other than 'grinding' with cerium powder (is that the stuff?). I'll just make a slurry with lens cleaner and powder and rub with a cotton swab; the chance of me reshaping the lens curvature is pretty well nil although yes, having coating come and go across a lens surface is not good practice. And I don't use this on someone else's lens without a good discussion beforehand.

And a lot of this reminds of the issue of multi-tasking. All studies point to it being pretty well useless and inefficient and contrary to how the brain works. Which leads to my cynical conclusion: multitasking is fine because most of what any of us do most of the time really isn't important and critical and demanding. Half-assed is good enough for a lot of things. I don't want a neurosurgeon dancing and talking holiday plans while operating, but dicking around with a spreadsheet while in another meeting and flirting with a co-worker? Does it matter if it is all done poorly?? Lens haze might be in a similar class. Do the best you can, maybe accept less than perfect, or maybe get another lens. In the whole system of making images there is noise everywhere.

Alex Benjamin · May 25, 2023

runswithsizzers said:
I am trying to think of the last time anyone got a definitive answer to a question around here. ;-)

Yup. And yet:

"It's not difficult Manuel. It's not a proposition by Wittgenstein."

BrianShaw · May 25, 2023

I’d focus on the responses of Jason, Nonna Dudda, as an acknowledged expert.

Dan Daniels response, above, is more experienced than mine and consistent - there could be, and probably are, multiple correct answers. (I pay attention to what Dan writes, BTW)

Was not intending to name names as you have your own discrimination criteria. There are probably others who should be considered authorities.

Dan Daniel · May 25, 2023

BrianShaw said:
I’d focus on the responses of Jason, Nonna Dudda, as an acknowledged expert.

Is Nonna Dudda the screen name of Jason who does the dry plate emulsions and such? He's an optical engineer and deal with recoating lenses so yes, that's his whole specialty!

Alex Benjamin · May 25, 2023

BrianShaw said:
I’d focus on the responses of Jason, Nonna Dudda, as an acknowledged expert.

Thanks. I'll take note of this.

BrianShaw said:
there could be, and probably are, multiple correct answers.

Does seem that way. Still, generally speaking, when this is the case, one usually runs into a process that goes like "Start with X. If that doesn't work, try Y and/or Z". But here, there never seems to be an agreed-upon X. I find it fascinating that lenses have been around for almost 200 years and there is no absolute consensus on what's best to remove (or start removing) haze and fungus.

BrianShaw · May 25, 2023

It seems that X is the least “powerful” and most mild solvent, distilled water, and each increment is next more powerful.

Not much help, huh?

Dan Daniel · May 25, 2023

Alex Benjamin said:
I find it fascinating that lenses have been around for almost 200 years and there is no absolute consensus on what's best to remove (or start removing) haze and fungus.

A huge reason for this is that there is not one consistent problem. Glass formulas have constantly changed. Metal mounting, and metal finishing like chroming and platings. Lens coatings. And big one, lubricants with all the chemical varations, potential gases, etc. And now plastics. At any one point in time there are multiple variables at work. Add time and what is at stake will change significantly. On top of that add that the solution to the problem (yes, pun...) might not be singular- ROR and Eclipse and water might all lead to the same result in some cases, for example. I knew a repairman who used, almost exclusively, windex mixed with household ammonia, 50/50. Consistently clean.

I think that you are looking for 'an' answer where there are really a variety of possible solutions. E.g. I've had fungus removed after a simple ROR cleaning. If not, maybe acetone. If not, try soaking in the classic ammonia/hydrogen peroxide. The basic idea is what Brian said- start with the least destructive and move to more and more aggressive solutions.

Alex Benjamin · May 25, 2023

BrianShaw said:
It seems that X is the least “powerful” and most mild solvent, distilled water, and each increment is next more powerful.

Not much help, huh?

Actually, thinking about it as "each increment being more powerful that the preceding one" does help. At least it's methodical, not experimental. With distilled water as X, I know I won't damage the lens. Now what would be Y and Z?...There's not that much haze, I don't need to invent a new alphabet beyond that .

reddesert · May 25, 2023

Is this about cleaning lenses, or about disassembling lenses for cleaning? If the latter, I suggest taking a look through Richard Haw's blog https://richardhaw.com/ where he documents disassembling and cleaning many (mostly Nikon) lenses. It's not trivial. Fortunately, many times you don't need to fully strip a lens down to clean it. However, there are a lot of things that can cause marks on a lens, there are a number of different lens coatings (and uncoated glass) and there might just be more than one answer.

Finally, I think one can't just demand an answer "I must know what the PROS use" and get it straight from youtube. There are relatively few trained-professional repair people left (it's not just about film cameras - lenses are on digital cameras as well - but about a society that doesn't fix things), and the ones that are left are busy.

BrianShaw · May 25, 2023

X+1 for me is alcohol.

I use Zeiss lens wipes on my spectacles, and started using them on camera lenses in those rare occasions when I feel the need to clean.

Alex Benjamin · May 25, 2023

Dan Daniel said:
A huge reason for this is that there is not one consistent problem. Glass formulas have constantly changed. Metal mounting, and metal finishing like chroming and platings. Lens coatings. And big one, lubricants with all the chemical varations, potential gases, etc. And now plastics. At any one point in time there are multiple variables at work. Add time and what is at stake will change significantly. On top of that add that the solution to the problem (yes, pun...) might not be singular- ROR and Eclipse and water might all lead to the same result in some cases, for example. I knew a repairman who used, almost exclusively, windex mixed with household ammonia, 50/50. Consistently clean.

I think that you are looking for 'an' answer where there are really a variety of possible solutions.

Great explanation, Dan. It's the first time I've had this made clear to me. Thanks.

Been thinking "science", maybe I should be thinking "alchemy"...

reddesert said:
I suggest taking a look through Richard Haw's blog https://richardhaw.com/ where he documents disassembling and cleaning many (mostly Nikon) lenses.

Thanks for the reference. Now, for the ultime "this is a small world" anecdote, the Montreal store he mentions on his May 20th entry is the store in which I bought the Olympus OM-1 for which I got the lenses I want to clean...

BrianShaw · May 25, 2023

Dan Daniel said:
Is Nonna Dudda the screen name of Jason who does the dry plate emulsions and such? He's an optical engineer and deal with recoating lenses so yes, that's his whole specialty!

Yes

guangong · May 25, 2023

For what it’s worth, I was told by the service manager at Leica about 25 years ago that they used ammonia. I use ammonia and also Tiffen lens cleaner.
My own philosophy is to clean lenses as seldom as possible. Keep dust off lens surface with a filter when needed. Use an air blower (but not canned compressed air) when needed. Liquid cleaner used only when finger inadvertently leaves mark on lens, but even then, sometimes breath and lens tissue is sufficient.
I have removed slight haze from exposed rear element by removing head. As for disassembling lens, not having lens calibration equipment, I leave that to professionals.
For fungus, if light, place lens in sunlight. If fungus has etched glass then see if professional can save lens...if it’s worth the expense.

4season · May 25, 2023

Not a expert, but I've got a number of lens CLAs under my belt.

First, clear away dust and debris, as some particles can be hard enough to cause damage.

For modern(ish) "hard" coatings, I don't see why Windex or pretty much any aqueous lens cleaner wouldn't suffice. If there's a film of old lubricant on the glass, I might reach for a solvent, such as the sort used for sensor cleaning. Be gentle, keep the area moist (but not so wet as to seep into lens cells!) as you clean. Depending on the situation, I might reach for lens tissue, a cotton swab, and/or a well-used microfiber cloth, which gets thoroughly washed between uses.

I don't bother attempting to sterilize the optics: Fungus spores are all around us, which is how the lens got afflicted in the first place. More important is that you don't store your gear in conditions which favor fungus growth; think dark, warm and humid.

If I don't have to remove individual lens elements from their cells, I don't. Often all that's needed is to unscrew the entire front and rear cells, and clean the elements closest to the diaphragm blades.

Zooms, lenses with floating elements, and some modern Cosina-Voigtlander rangefinder lenses, are another matter.

Richard Haw: Having followed his videos on Nikon F and 50 mm AI-S Micro-Nikkor (one of those lenses with floating elements), I'd say he knows what he's doing.

cmacd123 · May 25, 2023

listening on camera repair forus, hopeing something might rub off mo me, the most common solvents metioned are Lens Cleaner, ((Zeiss, or Kodak )) alcohol. and acetone. (only if plain distilled water does not work.)

henryvk · May 26, 2023

Not an expert of any sort but have some anecdotal evidence:

For uncoated lenses with both fungus as well as haze from evaporating grease I've used normal vinegar. Soak the elements, rub the residue off with the fingertips, rinse with fresh water and dry carefully with a microfiber cloth for glasses/lenses. I've done this with a number of old triplets from folding cameras and it has worked very well every time.

With my coated lenses my care is preventative in that I use lens caps fastidiously and wipe them as little as possible.

snusmumriken · May 26, 2023

I pass this on FWIW - you must judge its value. The research outfit for whom I worked used to pay a contractor to come in once a year to dismantle and clean all the lab microscopes. I doubt there was ever any fungus or haze for him to deal with, just dust and lab grunge. He used a brush and air puffer, followed by isopropyl alcohol and lens tissues, whether the elements were coated or not.

So that's what I use too. There are additional tips about doing this that I could add, but they would come from me, not from the professional.

Dan Daniel · May 26, 2023

Alex Benjamin said:
Been thinking "science", maybe I should be thinking "alchemy"...

Well, it is a science problem. Each situation will present one or more factors that led to the haze on the lens. All you need to do is understand what the haze consists of and then this will tell you what will remove it. Is it oil deposition on the surface of the glass? Is there a coating,and is the haze a chemical or physical change to the coating, or a layer on top? How strongly is the haze material adhering? What material will break this bond? I expect that sophisticated advanced discussions along these lines have taken place among people whose living depends on getting workable solutions. You'll need to find the in-house papers, obscure journals, etc. where this work occurs.

I bet that someone like Nonna Dudda has knowledge of and access to tools to analyze what is causing a problem and what will change the condition. The issue is whether will he take the time to do such an analysis and use the tools available.

And even the 'sloppiness' of all the anecdotal reports in places like this and Youtube videos, etc. is science of a primitive sort. Science can be a messy ongoing process with lots of blind alleys, mistakes accepted as fact etc. There are reasons there are resources of all sorts devoted to keeping medical science highly contested and tested and verified. But for us, we're working more in a medieval apprentice system of science where knowledge passes around by 'word of mouth' tinged with myths and irrelevant matters and miscommunication. At least this science has matured enough to not be suggesting sandpaper, magic spells, or blood of tadpoles. The same basic set of materials and methods keep being offered.

Alex Benjamin · May 26, 2023

Dan Daniel said:
Well, it is a science problem. Each situation will present one or more factors that led to the haze on the lens. All you need to do is understand what the haze consists of and then this will tell you what will remove it. Is it oil deposition on the surface of the glass? Is there a coating, and is the haze a chemical or physical change to the coating, or a layer on top? How strongly is the haze material adhering? What material will break this bond? I expect that sophisticated advanced discussions along these lines have taken place among people whose living depends on getting workable solutions. You'll need to find the in-house papers, obscure journals, etc. where this work occurs.

I bet that someone like Nonna Dudda has knowledge of and access to tools to analyze what is causing a problem and what will change the condition. The issue is whether will he take the time to do such an analysis and use the tools available.

And even the 'sloppiness' of all the anecdotal reports in places like this and Youtube videos, etc. is science of a primitive sort. Science can be a messy ongoing process with lots of blind alleys, mistakes accepted as fact etc. There are reasons there are resources of all sorts devoted to keeping medical science highly contested and tested and verified. But for us, we're working more in a medieval apprentice system of science where knowledge passes around by 'word of mouth' tinged with myths and irrelevant matters and miscommunication. At least this science has matured enough to not be suggesting sandpaper, magic spells, or blood of tadpoles. The same basic set of materials and methods keep being offered.

Again, thanks for the very clear and informative explanation. The diversity of causes and factors involved is something I had failed, in a very unscientific manner, to consider—like a scientific doctor trying to find a single cure for different iteration of the same disease.

It also makes me understand better my gripe against the various snake-oil peddlers I've run into on YouTube and blogs: their single "this is what I do" method might have worked for them, but there is no way to tell if it will work for me.

I disagree with you on one point. I do fear that what is lost in our times is the old notion of apprenticeship. For it to happen, you need a clear trade master, a person whose authority on the matter is clear, recognized and undisputed. In the field of camera and lens repair, I fear this will become rare.

The definitive, legit facts about lens cleaning... Please!

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