The cookbooks

Hi there. What do you people think about the Darkroom cookbook and the film developing cookbook? I've searched the forum a bit, it seems to get mentioned often.

The APUG, and internet in general, seem to be one interesting place to look up information about film processing. It just takes too much time to find what I exactly want about films and developers, so I'm thinking about going back the nice and classic books.

I already know a bit about chemistry and film developing, and I'm experimenting to see what's possible and what I like. I know a bit about the zone system, and hate to just guess how the outcome of a film & developer can be. The darkroom cookbook seems to be a nice basic of information, and the film developing cookbook a practical approach of using films and developers.

Are those books extensive enough about films/developres and their properties like tonality curves, grain, acutance, film speed,... and somewhat understandable? Are there better books?

They are recipe books, without a great deal of fundamental theory: for the latter, Haist is the acknowledged master, followed by Glafkides. Others include Clerc and Neblette. If you really want to UNDERSTAND what you are doing, their books are indispensable.

The cookbooks came out long after I had gathered numerous recipes from endless sources (I have literally hundreds of books on photography, going back to the 1880s) so I've never tried them seriously, but I did notice one fundamental error about washing film using the so-called Ilford method (5-10-20 inversions). They say that you need a 5-minute wait between soaks and no other reputable source agrees (largely because you don't). One mistake like that, delivered with an assertion that others were wrong, put me off rather.

I am probably swimming against the tide in being less impressed than most people by these books, and I certainly wouldn't dismiss them out of hand, but I find them a bit like the Zone System: by the time you understand enough basic theory to get the full benefit, you don't really need it (or them).

Cheers,

Roger

Teus said:

Hi there. What do you people think about the Darkroom cookbook and the film developing cookbook? I've searched the forum a bit, it seems to get mentioned often.

The APUG, and internet in general, seem to be one interesting place to look up information about film processing. It just takes too much time to find what I exactly want about films and developers, so I'm thinking about going back the nice and classic books.

I already know a bit about chemistry and film developing, and I'm experimenting to see what's possible and what I like. I know a bit about the zone system, and hate to just guess how the outcome of a film & developer can be. The darkroom cookbook seems to be a nice basic of information, and the film developing cookbook a practical approach of using films and developers.


Are those books extensive enough about films/developres and their properties like tonality curves, grain, acutance, film speed,... and somewhat understandable? Are there better books?

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The various editions of the Darkroom Cookbook and the Developing cookbook contain useful information - and some errors. They are not a good source of information on tonality curves, grain, acutance, film speed.

A lot of the information you are looking for is in the APUG archives. Use the APUG search function.

Also, register with MAGNAchrom (Free) and download their current Issue - which contains Jorge Gasteozoro's excellent Beyond The Zone System Primer and a simplified BTZS calculator.

Try "Post Exposure" by Ctein for lots of helpful information. It is a great book.

PE

Photo Engineer said:

Try "Post Exposure" by Ctein for lots of helpful information. It is a great book.

PE

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I'll second that! Buy the current edition which is even better than the first.

Cheers,

R.

I agree with Roger Hicks. One of the best information resources I've found is Grant Haist's MODERN PHOTOGRAPHIC PROCESSING (Volumes I and II), John Wiley and Sons, 1979. Cost WAS $125.95 USD for the 2 volume set in 1984.

You can order Grant Haist's book directly from him. Anyone wishing the mail order address can contact me via PM.

PE

Photo Engineer said:

You can order Grant Haist's book directly from him. Anyone wishing the mail order address can contact me via PM.

PE

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And it's worth it. Hellish expensive ($160 I think) but worth it.

Cheers,

R.

thanks for the replies everybody!

Tom Hoskinson said:

The various editions of the Darkroom Cookbook and the Developing cookbook contain useful information - and some errors. They are not a good source of information on tonality curves, grain, acutance, film speed.

A lot of the information you are looking for is in the APUG archives. Use the APUG search function.

Also, register with MAGNAchrom (Free) and download their current Issue - which contains Jorge Gasteozoro's excellent Beyond The Zone System Primer and a simplified BTZS calculator.

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thanks, i'll check out Magnachrom. about the search function: it's nice for specific info on something, but it's not like a side by side comparison.

this week i checked out the silvergrain wiki: it's not too big but gives some great information I liked a lot:

Films may be classified in a pseudoscale of -10 to +10, where -10 is upsweep curve shape, 0 straight-line with little toe and shoulder, and +10 strongly shouldered S-shape. In this scale, films like T-MAX 400 and TXP (320 speed) are negative, T-MAX 100 is near zero, Plus-X, Neopan 400, Delta 400 are more positive, and Delta 3200 and TMZ very positive. (Fujifilm Across can vary in some range, both sides of zero, depending on the developer, making this film quite versatile.) Films on the negative side would produce darker medtone and snappy highlights, which is probably most useful in studio shots. Films on the positive side would produce gentle highlights and crisp midtones, making it suitable for snapshots and street photography. Films near zero is probably most useful for landscape work, although a bit of shoulder may be useful at times.

too bad the film developing cookbook doesn't give more info on this, apparently. I recently played with TMAX film: fine grained, more contrast then tri-x. Darks easily went black without a lot detail (black trousers or sweater on a gray day). understanding this, and finding out how it can be somewhat corrected with development, would be nice

Tom Hoskinson said:

I agree with Roger Hicks. One of the best information resources I've found is Grant Haist's MODERN PHOTOGRAPHIC PROCESSING (Volumes I and II), John Wiley and Sons, 1979. Cost WAS $125.95 USD for the 2 volume set in 1984.

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sorry, but that's not within my budget. also, the book is 20 years old, and quite some progress has been made since then

Teus said:

sorry, but that's not within my budget. also, the book is 20 years old, and quite some progress has been made since then

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A lot less than you might think. This is still regarded as the definitive text by many who know a great deal more than I.

Cheers,

Roger

Be careful the Silvergrain site contains fundemental errors in some Formulæ, as the author has not double checked his sources.

Ian

Teus said:

thanks for the replies everybody!
this week i checked out the silvergrain wiki: it's not too big but gives some great information I liked a lot:

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Not much research was conducted with respect to B&W film processing after Grant's definitive text. In fact, his entire division was pretty much shut down within 10 years of publication without use of many of the internal formulas that were developed for new developers and fixers.

So, his book, as said above is still the definitive text on the subject. Along with that is "Theory of the Photographic Process" by Mees and James.

For those who love math and chemistry, lots of it, try "Photographic Analysis" by Katz and Fogel.

Grant and his co-workers such as Dick Dickerson and Sylvia Zawadski have either retired or have since moved on to other things outside of Kodak.

PE

Teus said:

The book is 20 years old, and quite some progress has been made since then

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........such as?

Roger Hicks said:

And it's worth it. Hellish expensive ($160 I think) but worth it.

Cheers,

R.

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Please give an over view of what this publication contains for those such as myself who have not seen a copy of this book.
Cheers.

Grant Haist's book

Here are the contents.

PE

Photo Engineer said:

Here are the contents.

PE

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Thanks, you must have posted this while i was typing a PM.

Keith Tapscott. said:

........such as?

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developers in general, T-grain films and their development.

Photo Engineer said:

Here are the contents.

PE

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thanks, looks nice

Another book to think about is, "Developing" by K.I. Jacobson & R.E. Jacobson.

You should be able to find this book secondhand at a reasonable price. I bought my edition in 1985 new, for $37 AUD.

It contains pretty much everything and is more or less a definitive book on developing film, in it's own way.

Over the years I have seen other publications come along, one of them being the Darkroom Cookbook. Nothing in the Darkroom Cookbook expanded on what the Developing book had. In fact I was dissapointed in that the Darkroom Cookbook appeared to be nothing more than a rushed compilation of formulae from other publications, including some from Developing.

Developing has around 150 film developing formulae, with a total of about 300 formulae of various fixers, colour processes, stain removers, etcetera.

It's a small hardbound book about A5 size 422 pages.

ISBN 0 240 44770 0 (excluding USA)

ISBN 0 8038 1547 6 (USA only)

It's a Focal press publication.

Mick.

Photo Engineer said:

For those who love math and chemistry, lots of it, try "Photographic Analysis" by Katz and Fogel.

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I grabbed a copy off of AbeBooks for a low $4 shipped. Maybe one day I'll be able to understand it all.