The concern with 'rendering power' and photographs as objects...

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batwister

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Its interesting to read others views on Flickr. *I see Flickr as a constant source of inspiration - of finding things that interest me and things that I think I might like to try. *Is it copying? *If we didn't copy we don't learn. *And if that is theft, the only true photographers out there must be blind.

Then there's blind imitation...

Learning is a process of recognition and growth. It starts with imitation, then assimilation, then hopefully innovation.

Flickr doesn't encourage self-reflection and growth, only impulse uploading and a steady stream of compliments - consistent validation. It's a world without questions. Everything you produce, in your mind, is always great in someone elses. It's like a psychological and artistic impasse. The same effect Mr. Wright and his friend's work have on some. *

When pleasing yourself is as easy as pleasing everyone else, you're Harry Cory Wright. Then there's those in the middle who just want to produce and see good work, but are constantly inundated by these annoying problems; "why is he photographing everything and everyone always likes it? Why am I constantly challenging myself? Would I be happier doing what he's doing? What's the point in doing anything?" Some people like to consistently challenge themselves and others, which usually makes for better art.

But these questions that keep arising at the moment, which are never about the work specifically, but about the point of work altogether, make for procrastination. So even if we want to make good art, the empty stuff opens up a hole that we all fall down whether we like it or not. Art itself is in the middle of an existential crisis. Nothing really clearly good or really obviously bad can be done until we move past this phase.*

Going full circle, that's exactly the same reason I've ignored Flickr for the last year.*

Here's a suggestion:
Every artist and photographer everywhere should work in obscurity and only take their inspiration from the classic work. Maybe then, in another 50 years, we'll be back where we were before this whole charade started.
 

hoffy

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Then there's blind imitation...

Learning is a process of recognition and growth. It starts with imitation, then assimilation, then hopefully innovation.
Yes, I am not going to disagree with you there.

Flickr doesn't encourage self-reflection and growth, only impulse uploading and a steady stream of compliments - consistent validation. It's a world without questions. Everything you produce, in your mind, is always great in someone elses. It's like a psychological and artistic impasse. The same effect Mr. Wright and his friend's work have on some. *
Yes, there is a lot of that going on - I am not going to disagree with that either - but there are a lot of hidden gems. I suppose you just need to know where to look. When I find something interesting, it generally is away from the mainstream groups - the submit 1, praise 2 type groups - that are not really helpful. Regardless of it being film or digital, there are many groups on flickr catering for many different things. There are also groups that are quite harsh and subjective - you can seek them out if you want.

That being said, (& time for the APUG controversial statement of the week), it really isn't any different with the galleries on this forum. There is not a lot of constructive criticism going on - either a photo gets hardly a comment or it gets a lot of "love the tones....". But, I still enjoy the gallery - call me weird, part of the joy of photography is looking at other peoples photos.

Then there is the opposite - I have been members of many (digital) photography forums, where it is encouraged that people re-edit displayed photos if they feel that they could make an improvement. This I really dislike. Yes, comment, give suggestions on how you may have done it or different techniques, but let the author make the changes (because simply, they may be happy with what they have submitted).

When pleasing yourself is as easy as pleasing everyone else, you're Harry Cory Wright. Then there's those in the middle who just want to produce and see good work, but are constantly inundated by these annoying problems; "why is he photographing everything and everyone always likes it? Why am I constantly challenging myself? Would I be happier doing what he's doing? What's the point in doing anything?" Some people like to consistently challenge themselves and others, which usually makes for better art.

Maybe I fall into that category. I think in comparison to many, the pictures I take are bland and out of style, but as much as I try to do things that maybe a bit more out there, the more I fall back into what I am comfortable with....this is the thing - I am keeping myself happy, but on the other foot I want others to accept what I have done.

But these questions that keep arising at the moment, which are never about the work specifically, but about the point of work altogether, make for procrastination. So even if we want to make good art, the empty stuff opens up a hole that we all fall down whether we like it or not. Art itself is in the middle of an existential crisis. Nothing really clearly good or really obviously bad can be done until we move past this phase.*

I agree with this as well - pop art has been around for long enough now, that there is nothing new and anything that is new is either bland or so out there and controversial that the great unwashed don't like it anyway.

Going full circle, that's exactly the same reason I've ignored Flickr for the last year.*

Here's a suggestion:
Every artist and photographer everywhere should work in obscurity and only take their inspiration from the classic work. Maybe then, in another 50 years, we'll be back where we were before this whole charade started.
Maybe - maybe not
 

JBrunner

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Looking at the past and the present is something we must do. But I do not think necessary to inform our futures. Take what works for you, ignore what does not, you will. Make your own photographs from inside. Feel the force coursing through your lens into your film. Complete you, it will. Make photograph of ground, I did. Big negative I did use. Grass it is certainly not.
 

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Yamaotoko

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Looking at the past and the present is something we must do. But I do not think necessary to inform our futures. Take what works for you, ignore what does not, you will. Make your own photographs from inside. Feel the force coursing through your lens into your film. Complete you, it will. Make photograph of ground, I did. Big negative I did use. Grass it is certainly not.


:laugh:
 

lxdude

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Looking at the past and the present is something we must do. But I do not think necessary to inform our futures. Take what works for you, ignore what does not, you will. Make your own photographs from inside. Feel the force coursing through your lens into your film. Complete you, it will. Make photograph of ground, I did. Big negative I did use. Grass it is certainly not.

Yo da man!
 

polyglot

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As a side note, I think Flickr is largely made up of people who pick things up - concepts I mean - without knowing and there is a massive amount of creative naivety and general ignorance about the lineage and history of art photography. I've been scared away from it because it's a world unto itself and it influenced my 'visual vocabulary' in a way that made me uncomfortable, stunting my growth. Sitting down and really assessing my images one night, this was almost a grand awakening. But you do see hints at ideas and visual styles, unconsciously appropriated perhaps, from the 'real' world of contemporary photography and classical work. It does get filtered through, but very rapidly recycled into superficialities.

I think you could substitute "flickr" for "modern photographers as a group".

As hoffy says, there are more-interesting parts of flickr. Ignore the "post 1, comment N" circle-jerk groups and you can find moderated groups with very high standards and groups with very harsh and insightful criticism. There are much finer standards in certain corners of flickr than there are on APUG for example.
 
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batwister

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I just fundamentally disagree with galleries for unrealised work, full stop. If the bar is set at 'anything goes', personal insight and strong articulation of concepts rarely materialise. Those things depend on setting yourself a strict framework for image making and a considered approach. Perhaps engaging in the critical and community side could benefit you, in small doses. Critique is better in confidence though, with the most experienced established photographer you can find. But I really disagree with endlessly uploading images, without real consideration of the message, sentiment, visual articulation and relation to the rest of your photographs as a cohesive body of work. It also helps to have an awareness of the visual arts in general, letting ideas from other mediums get in your head, rather than thinking to be incestuously photographic about your influences results in some kind of purity of output. Not the case - think Stieglitz, Weston, Strand, Cartier-Bresson, Callahan, Kenna - all of whom had a close connection with painting and painters.

That being said, (& time for the APUG controversial statement of the week), it really isn't any different with the galleries on this forum. There is not a lot of constructive criticism going on - either a photo gets hardly a comment or it gets a lot of "love the tones....". But, I still enjoy the gallery - call me weird, part of the joy of photography is looking at other peoples photos.

EDIT: It's important to note that I am talking about 'the art world' here and not amateur communities, which we have to recognise are separate entities. If you enjoy looking at amateur photography, I'm certainly not going to suggest killing that part of your joy. Personally, I like looking at only the best work I can find, which doesn't happen to be on Flickr, but publications and very occasionally, in galleries.

You'll notice I have pretty strong opinions on this! But I feel I need to let any other ambitious photographer know that as soon as I stopped uploading images online and getting my visual stimulation solely from books and galleries, the quality of my work and wider awareness of the arts shot up. I can only say Flickr is an artistically inhibiting addiction in my experience. Perhaps the occasional popularity of images there, through masses of favourites and comments, has warped the reality of what the website is.

The two images in my gallery were made upon getting my Hasselblad a few years ago, when Flickr was a main source of influence - I dread to think about being locked into producing that standard of work.

Sorry, I've really digressed here.
 
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Bertil

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First, a lot of what is named as contemporary art is today made with using all kinds of photographic materials, both traditional and digital.
This contemporary art is not, I suggest, necessarily the same as "contemporary art of photography" - whatever that is. As far as I can see, many of the contemporary artists that in various ways use photographic materials/equipment don't view themselves necessarily as photographers, just artists using cameras and various photographic materials (though not everyone of course); may even be the artists assistant(s) that release the shutter - some "photographers" more seems to be like film directors with competent technical people around them doing the professional work, leaving the artistic set up to the artist/director (see Charlotte Cotton, The Photograph as Contemporary Art, (London, Thames & Hudson, 2004)) – which of course is not a very new thing in the history of photography!

Second, if you find nothing interesting to look at viewing Henry Cory Wright’s home site (se OP of this thread), sorry for you!
We don't have to assume that something very extraordinary ("ultra dramatic..") has to be the output of such a ("pretentious"?) equipment as an 8x10 camera. Perhaps H C Wright, just like Edward Weston once did, enjoys looking at the world around him and point his 8x10 camera at things that interests him (take a look at Willard van Dyke's Edward Weston film on You Tube).

Third: yes, a little bit ridicules, but photographs entering the world of the contemporary art circus seems a lot to have to do with size! (see Michal Fried: Why Photograpy Matters as Art as Never Before, (New Haven/London, Yale UP, 2008 and later), who to a great extent is discussing Jeff Wall)
/Bertil
 

polyglot

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You'll notice I have pretty strong opinions on this! But I feel I need to let any other ambitious photographer know that as soon as I stopped uploading images online and getting my visual stimulation solely from books and galleries, the quality of my work and wider awareness of the arts shot up. I can only say Flickr is an artistically inhibiting addiction in my experience. Perhaps the occasional popularity of images there, through masses of favourites and comments, has warped the reality of what the website is.

The two images in my gallery were made upon getting my Hasselblad a few years ago, when Flickr was a main source of influence - I dread to think about being locked into producing that standard of work.

Sorry, I've really digressed here.

Strong opinions are good if you're going to actually state where specifically "the good stuff" is; you can't just point and say "that stuff over there is bad". While I'm still convinced you just haven't seen the good bits of Flickr, I am genuinely interested to find new sources of inspiration.

I've had the opposite experience as you with books and local galleries. There are good books.. but which? Likewise gallery shows; most I've been to have been frankly depressingly bad.
 

36cm2

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Mr. Wright's site does have some interesting work, but that horticultural set does nothing for me other than spur the very interesting views in this thread and motivate me to fertilize my lawn, which i am now literally going to do. I question work that requires so much explanation. Especially when it initially presents itself in the guise of simplicity. Faeces facit crescere herbis. Latet anguis in herba.
 

David A. Goldfarb

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So has anyone seen the prints?
 
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batwister

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Sent you a PM, polyglot.
 
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Ian David

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When I was younger and wiser I also quickly developed very strong opinions on the merit of others' work, and what constituted good or 'proper' photography. I found I could develop these opinions without actually seeing the work in person, presented as intended, without speaking to its creator, and without even trying very hard to imagine a context in which an image which initially did not amaze me might nevertheless work very well. I now know a lot less, and find that I see quite a lot more.

The reason that people can and will argue forever about what constitutes art, or the difference between good and bad art, is that everybody looks at art through their own eyes and feels their own personal response. (Some even have an overwhelming emotional investment in a certain set of tools that strangely warps their views on the question.) If a large high-resolution colour image of weeds generates some significant emotional response in me for some reason, or works to make me feel a particular way when presented in some particular context, why should I care what someone else thinks about the banality of its content, or the means of its creation?

Similarly, images can work in many different ways: standing alone, in the context of a larger collection, against the background of the creator's prior work, as a nod to some historical school or trend, etc, etc. Why should an image need to fit into any particular one of these boxes?

If art criticism pushes your buttons, then go for your life. But I personally find much of it (like literary criticism) to be pompous and sterile stuff, whether in academic publications or in APUG threads. If you are just a photographer who wants to take more meaningful photos, then inspiration or a new way of looking at things might be found anywhere (including the APUG galleries, or flickr, or the wall of the local Chinese restaurant). It might shock some to hear that it may sometimes even be found in a non-traditional guise!

The main crime associated with some contemporary photography (and art generally) is the language that is used to describe it. Sometimes impenetrable artspeak is the creation of the galleries, sometimes the creation of an ambitious photographer who feels that the blurb is necessary in order to make his work appeal to those who might show or buy it. But ultimately I find that the best test of an image is how it makes me feel (or might make me feel in different circumstances). Sometimes that question, when honestly answered, makes my preconceptions seem petty and ignorant.

Ian
 
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The main crime associated with some contemporary photography (and art generally) is the language that is used to describe it. Sometimes impenetrable artspeak is the creation of the galleries, sometimes the creation of an ambitious photographer who feels that the blurb is necessary in order to make his work appeal to those who might show or buy it.

My eyes glaze over and I'm nodding
My eyes glaze over and I'm gone
My eyes glaze over and I'm nodding
Oh bring back good art for me to see
Bring back, bring back
Oh bring back good art for me to see, to see
Bring back, bring back
Oh bring back good art for me to see
 
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batwister

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If art criticism pushes your buttons, then go for your life. But I personally find much of it (like literary criticism) to be pompous and sterile stuff, whether in academic publications or in APUG threads.

Thinking about other work and how your own might stand next to it is hardly art criticism. Though, it might be a little delusional and yes, pretentious. But everyone and everything is pretentious at the moment, it's certainly an overused word and mostly a reactionary one. Of course, being objective about other work as a means to develop your own is bound to be somewhat sterile, as opposed to sentimental poetry about the experience. Yes, being moved by images is great and I frequently am, as a viewer. As a photographer, don't you think some detached analysis of composition, treatment and contents is beneficial for the development of your craft, eye and perhaps - dare I say it... concepts? Do you think Edward Weston always wore his heart on his sleave and let his emotions gush through the ground glass, searching for his Juliet, in the form of rocks? There's more that went into his images than romanticism and being moved. Not to compare myself in any way shape or form, but I'm sure he was called a pompous arse once upon a time too.

When I was younger and wiser I also quickly developed very strong opinions on the merit of others' work, and what constituted good or 'proper' photography. I found I could develop these opinions without actually seeing the work in person, presented as intended, without speaking to its creator, and without even trying very hard to imagine a context in which an image which initially did not amaze me might nevertheless work very well. I now know a lot less, and find that I see quite a lot more.

Your life and photography obviously took you in a different direction, antipathetic to thinking too much, photographically. Perhaps mine will too, but should I just accept that now and give up? I feel 'pontificating', if that's what it is in your mind, only helps my photography - I certainly see the impact of this thinking in my results. Perhaps you never did. Horses for courses. Though I don't appreciate trying to be stifled. When I've heard that photography groups kill an ambitious photographer, I can see where they are coming from in this regard.

I don't prescribe to this idea of seeing the prints - as a photographer - because the presentation is concerned with impact and immediacy of evocation, for the benefit of the buyer. I believe great images work in any presentation format, which only makes seeing them in person more exciting. Though I don't think it's the be all and end all of seeing work, only the end goal of an artist's presentation, with the intention of interesting buyers. I certainly don't have any haste in exhibiting my own for that reason. As I've said, I'm concerned with images and the making of them, which doesn't require me to see prints - though I occasionally do, as a lover of photography and there are many I would like to see, just for the experience - to finalise my knowledge of their work. Why would anyone think though, that an hour stood up in a gallery, with twenty people stood around you is the best way to spend time with images? Poring over well sequenced books (preferably by the photographer himself) in the comfort of your own home, without any social distraction, in your own time, perhaps making notes, is without question the best way to absorb, be moved by and analyse images. I know a great expressionist painter who rarely goes to exhibitions. Would you suggest that they need to see Munch's work in person before they know what they're talking about or painting? What about a filmmaker? Do they have to see an original print of Ingmar Bergman's before they can have an understanding or appreciation of the films? Are you telling me I have to see a Robert Adams exhibition before I can understand or appreciate his work? I'm in the UK for a start, where would I see his prints in my photographically skeptical and ignorant country?

Galleries are more experiential in my mind, social and in the interest of commerce, which some people obviously thrive on. Why are people so warped about the importance of seeing and making the 'fine print'? I'm starting to think it's just a 'healthy' excuse for materialism. Even if the fine art print community is a conscious reaction to contemporary photography, both concerns seem to run counter to the making of great photographs. They are both extremes, idealism. It's nice, sometimes moving, to see a fine traditional print, but it doesn't have any more impact on me as a photographer than a good reproduction. I maintain that ambitious practicing photographers should be concerned with images, not objects on walls. Too radical?

The reason that people can and will argue forever about what constitutes art, or the difference between good and bad art, is that everybody looks at art through their own eyes and feels their own personal response. (Some even have an overwhelming emotional investment in a certain set of tools that strangely warps their views on the question.) If a large high-resolution colour image of weeds generates some significant emotional response in me for some reason, or works to make me feel a particular way when presented in some particular context, why should I care what someone else thinks about the banality of its content, or the means of its creation?

I appreciate your sentiment. Though I think as long as people are serious about the creation of art, it will be talked about and pondered from every angle aside from emotional response. Emotional engagement is what gets us going, but thinking about the 'whys', 'hows' and 'what ifs' are what keep us stepping up our game. If the impulses of emotional reactions were all there was, we'd still be living in the dark ages. I enjoy the light.
 
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So has anyone seen the prints?

I traveled the astral plane and remote viewed them. Still not impressed. I also tried peeking through the gallery's window using Google street view, but either the gallery is newer than the street view picture, or else they didn't have much art for sale.

Anybody actually live close to that place (11 Eccleston Street)?
 

Ian David

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Your life and photography obviously took you in a different direction, antipathetic to thinking too much, photographically.

You misunderstand me. I think a great deal about photography, including how to improve and develop my own work. What I try to avoid is approaching a consideration of photography (and art generally) with an inflexible set of preconceived notions.

Have a read back through your last post. Pretty strident stuff, in places. I see in another thread that you are 24. With respect, you still have a bit of living ahead of you and, if you allow it to happen, you may find that some of your present intellectual convictions seem less obvious a bit further down the track. But I am certainly not trying to stifle you.

I won't respond to all your rhetorical questions. But I will just point out a couple of things...

You give the term 'emotional response' a very narrow meaning. There is a wide stretch of emotional landscape between cold objectivity and gushing sentimentality.

Your post seems to assume that the only reason anyone makes or shows prints is to appeal to buyers. That is plainly mistaken. In my experience, much can often be gained by looking at a photograph in the form that its maker wants you to see it. You might recognise a great image in a decent reproduction. But then again you might not. Go and sit in the Rothko Room at the Tate Modern, if you haven't already done so. There is simply no comparison between a coffee table book showing Rothko's paintings, and the real thing in full scale and true colour. The same can also be true of photographs.

By all means praise an image if it amazes you in the comfort of your living room. But you will sometimes miss out on some interesting and subtle stuff, and perhaps do some photographer an injustice, if you choose to deride or ignore work that doesn't immediately leap out at you in your armchair.

Ian
 
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batwister

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I think what the argument comes down to aside from my bad manners and tone (and apologies), is the difference of value we place on the materials and the image itself. This has always seemed like an impenetrable wall in discussions on APUG.

There is a young woman, younger than me in fact. She lives a couple of towns away and has made quite a name for herself on a certain popular photo sharing site. She's ended up shooting album covers for big name bands and pretty much established herself as international hot property. She doesn't know any of the classical photographers, doesn't go to exhibitions as far as I'm aware and her work, while of a 'high' standard, is visually illiterate in my eyes. Naive and immature, for someone at her level. Yet, she's done incredibly well. She also runs workshops, which have obviously come about through overconfidence in her ability and insight - a result of what I see as the premature praise she has received, for visual gimmicks and being somewhat attractive. My argument - being young and rebelious - would be that the world she is a part of is completely ignorant about the arts and only concerned with their narcissistic, fame oriented motivations. Getting to the top as fast as possible. In the same way some young tennis players are - once on the court with the real greats, the major faults of their game become apparent to everyone. They usually do one thing well and get by on kidding everyone with it, for a while.

But, who are you or I to say she needs to see prints in person, in order to know her craft and influences? Does she have to become familiar with the greats at all even? Considering where she is, maybe this would only be procrastination, setting her back. With that in mind, for me or you to spend a full day of a weekend in a gallery, where would that really get us with our own craft? It would be nice, but you have to understand that I'm talking about photography as more than leisure.

Being well read photographically is beneficial in my mind, but you'll notice how many on this forum and elsewhere could write their own history book, yet how has their photography benefited? What have they truly learnt and applied to their work? It's not just about endlessly seeing work in my mind, but being receptive and understanding what you can take from it. Something that's extremely difficult with five minutes in front of a print in a gallery, regardless of how big and beautiful it is. The presence of the work is what hits me more than anything in a gallery and I find it can warp my judgement. Isn't this why Harry Cory Wright prints 6 footers? He wants you to see that insignificant patch of grass as something overwhelming - not realistically how we would see the subject matter. If it's the reliance on the experiential in modern art that does it for you, then exhibitions of this work are everything. I'm interested in what a photograph is at its bare roots, that special something that materialises on the negative and can be translated into even the smallest print. There's one photographer whose transparencies I would give anything to see. This isn't something that punches you in the face trying to win you over, but through quiet contemplation you can come to understand. In a way, I can understand people who get their camera phones out in galleries. Part of you needs to take it back to your lair, look it at your own leisure and let it hit you at your own level, without distraction.

Wanted to share something also.
I went to this exhibition on Sunday - http://www.manchestergalleries.org/whats-on/exhibitions/index.php?itemID=91

I was unsure about what was on display, but I was seeing a friend nearby and we went. I genuinely couldn't respond to any of the images. Some intrigued me and perhaps had I seen them in a book, would have moved me. But nuance and level of detail aside, I just couldn't get anything from the work. If anything, it intimidated me into submission. In the next room they were showing contemporary African work - the book of which I considered buying some months ago. Honestly, after seeing the work, I can say I'm no longer interested. If I'd bought the book first however and given the images some time, who's to say I wouldn't have got something from them? At which point, going to that exhibition might have been a great experience.

It seems in my experience (what little I evidently have) exhibitions are a very delicately balanced form of presentation, with many weights in place that can work for or against the viewers experience of the work. There are fewer compromises with a high quality book, not to mention that you are in control of the light you view the work under, the amount of chatterboxes in the room with you and the amount of time you spend with the images. If you're suggesting that Harry Cory Wright's images might be more effective in person, perhaps he shouldn't be presenting the work on a website and in books - how most people will see the work. This comes back to the idea of contemporary art not being concerned with most people, but the priveleged few who can see and buy it. Narrowcasting you might say. There are MANY modes of presentation today and images will be seen more in reproduction than original forms. Reproductions can potentially damage the experience of the work if, at the point of making, the image relies on a singular form of presentation for us to understand it. Photographs, by nature, do not.
 
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