the BELLOWS problem

darinwc · Nov 21, 2007

I have a handfull of 'project' cameras that need new bellows.
At one point in time I figured i could scout ebay and find suitable replacements from other beaters. But its been years and I havent had much luck. So it looks like I am going to have to buckle down and make the bellows myself.

The construction looks easy enough but I'm having a real hard time figuring out what material to use. I went to a leather supply store (tandy leather) and there was nothing thin enough for a bellows. I went to a fabric store and they had 'blackout" material which was vinyl covered cloth which was supposed to be used as curtain liner, but it only came in white. I will keep looking but I was wondering if anyone else could reccomend something that might be locally available. I dont really want to order something cause im the touchy-feely type.

Steve Smith · Nov 21, 2007

I have made one set of bellows myself using less than ideal materials - self adhesive black vinyl stuck to black paper. They work o.k. but I have doubts as to their robustness.

I was planning on making another set using the cloth from a changing bag (I have one with a broken zip) but I have just bought a Sinar bellows from ebay for 99p so my next home made camera will be designed around this.

Steve.

Pinholemaster · Nov 21, 2007

http://www.camerabellows.com/

http://www.nabell.com/marketareas.html

http://www2.hawaii.edu/~mkapono/bellows.htm

http://www.fiberq.com/cam/amopt/aoacme.htm

Dead Link Removed

To name a few options. Hope this is helpful.

bliorg · Nov 21, 2007

Pinholemaster said:
http://www2.hawaii.edu/~mkapono/bellows.htm

To name a few options. Hope this is helpful.

Word of warning on Mark Kapono - he's MIA. Was very prompt on replying to emails and such, then flat disappeared around June. Left me without a bellows for my Seneca that I'd paid him $180 for.

If anyone's had any contact with him at all since June of this year, I want to hear from you. Please. Pretty please.

darinwc · Nov 21, 2007

Regarding the suggestions of ordering a bellows: That takes all the fun out of it!
Also it looks like they run $150+ That is more than id be willing to pay.

Question: where do you find contact vinyl?

I went to a big fabric store. They had some vinyl but it was backed by fabric so it was pretty thick. They had some pvc type fabric which looked good but it was stretchy and im not sure it would last. I did get lucky and found they had some leatherette (in black only) which was backed by a fabric but i could peel the fabric off. There was less than a yard of it left so I got it for half price (originally $29 a yard!). But it should be enough for 2 bellows.

However I dont think this is something they usually carry. I will keep looking and see what else i can find.

resummerfield · Nov 21, 2007

I used the cloth from an old changing bag, and it seemed to work OK. Then I found some darkroom cloth at Porters Camera, that I intend to use for the next bellows.

smieglitz · Nov 21, 2007

Order Porter's premium nylon blackout fabric for the bellows material. Perhaps the fabric could be used with the dull rubberized layer towards the inside with stiffeners and an outer layer of fabric (of your choice from the fabric store) glued to the shiny nylon surface. I have a lacewood/copper/copper metallic fabric camera under construction and have also thought of using aluminized nylon in concert with the Porter's cloth to construct a bellows for a handmade "silver" monorail.

Here's a link to my square bellows construction page and a pic of my first completed bellows:

freygr · Nov 21, 2007

darinwc said:
Regarding the suggestions of ordering a bellows: That takes all the fun out of it!
Also it looks like they run $150+ That is more than id be willing to pay.

Question: where do you find contact vinyl?

I went to a big fabric store. They had some vinyl but it was backed by fabric so it was pretty thick. They had some pvc type fabric which looked good but it was stretchy and im not sure it would last. I did get lucky and found they had some leatherette (in black only) which was backed by a fabric but i could peel the fabric off. There was less than a yard of it left so I got it for half price (originally $29 a yard!). But it should be enough for 2 bellows.

However I dont think this is something they usually carry. I will keep looking and see what else i can find.

I got my hands on some 6 mil black vinyl, and I use black muslin for the inside and the stiffeners I used cover stock (James coat) but the camera restoration book says to use railroad board (post board or mat board). The sandwich was to stiff for the small bellows which I have to build. The stiffeners thickness depends on the size of the bellow. The smaller bellows are the hardest to make, and there are two styles of folding the bellows and depending on which style of fold you plain to use you need a different size form to build the bellows on.

nick mulder · Nov 21, 2007

Bellows are a bitch ... I'm glad I made one, but from now on - hell no!

walter23 · Nov 21, 2007

resummerfield said:
I used the cloth from an old changing bag, and it seemed to work OK. Then I found some darkroom cloth at Porters Camera, that I intend to use for the next bellows.

I ordered some of the premium nylon thin stuff from porters too for an 8x10 project (and later some ULF). It seems suitable, it's quite thin and so the bulk of the bellows will be the cosmetic layer and the ribs. As far as I'm concerned this is a good thing as it allows more flexibility in choosing the rest of the materials.

Oh, and it's very light tight. Better than anything else I've tested so far (I've ordered a lot of samples of PVC and rubberized materials). My test is a canon 580EX speedlight on full power shot through the material straight into my lens from a few inches away (f/4 ISO1600). With the porters cloth I didn't see so much as a wink through the cloth. Very impressive. Even my stock, from-the-factory, perfectly functional shen hao bellows aren't totally light tight with this test - they glow a bit red.

I have yet to build the bellows (need the cosmetic layer, some adhesive, cardboard, and most importantly the time) but I'm confident that it will work very well.

Dan Dozer · Nov 22, 2007

Hi Walter,

I've made several myself and some were more successful than others. The drapery black out fabric is what I'm using now, but I just paint it black with some ordinary black latex paint. You may want to thin it down as it comes from the can/bottle because it may be a little thick. For the other layer, most recently i used black eqyptian cotton I got at the fabric store on sale for only a few $/yd.

The PVC coated material that you have seen at the fabric stores most likely won't work. I used to be able to get a pretty good thin material that worked perfectly at Hancock Fabrics (yes some of it is stretchy), but I haven't seen anything suitable for three or four years. Most of what they have now is too thick. Also, make sure if you do find some that appears thin enough, try to verify that it is actually light tight. One that I tried wasn't.

For the bellows stays, I use ordinary poster board that I got at Office Depot. It's about the thickness of manila file folders and you can probably use those also.

From what I've read, smaller bellows for old folder type cameras are the most difficult because it has to fold up right to fit inside the camera. All of the ones that I have made are for larger view cameras so it wasn't as much of an issue.

Regarding leather, I once bought some leather from a place on line called The Leather Supply House. I was intending on using it for lens caps but it was much too thin for that. It would probably work fine for bellows, but as I recall, it wasn't very cheap.

I also agree with resummerfield that an old film changing back should work pretty well if your bellows is small enough.

Good luck,

Dan

Eric Mac · Nov 22, 2007

I have also gone the Porters route using their premium blackout cloth and used file folders for the stiffeners. I then used a China silk product as the inside liner. I tried using car headliner spray glue to attach the liner to the blackout cloth and found the glue too thick. It almost came out like silly string. The bellows is for a 4x10 camera I am building, about 14" extended, but since I made the bellows about 3/4" too tall, I have to rebuild the rear standard. I also made an expensive mistake by cutting the bellows without a glue flap rendering the material too small. I hope I have enough for the 7x17 camera I hope to build next year.

I spent most of my time doing the layout on Autocad (big relearning curve) and probably cutting the stiffeners. Don't be intimidated by the folding, if you have the layout and stiffeners done properly, it almost folds itself.

Good luck
Eric

Steve Smith · Nov 22, 2007

Eric Mac said:
Don't be intimidated by the folding, if you have the layout and stiffeners done properly, it almost folds itself.

Eventually!

Remember that if you use the material from a changing bag you will probably need two layers. Most of these woven materials can be 99.9% lightproof so if you have a double layer it practically guarantees 100%.

I stayed up most of one night many years ago teaching myself how to fold bellows after looking at my Agfa Isolette. At that time I managed to produce a square bellows.

A few years ago I had to re-think it to produce a tapered bellows. Luckilly, at work, I have CAD, a CNC XY knife cutter, a CNC drill router and a laser cutter so I can make parts quite accurately and quickly.

Steve.

Greg_E · Nov 22, 2007

Try a search for camera bellows here, there are a few really good threads on it. Inparticular you will find information on getting a book from Barry Young that I suggest, as well as a free download from another place that I suggest. There is also a good indepth discussion about making tapered bellows with some design suggestions that you should read.

Sandeha Lynch · Nov 22, 2007

I used the stuff from Porter's. Not ideal as it's still a little on the thick side, but very good for a large bellows set. I have left some instructions at the bottom of this page ... http://www.sandehalynch.com/restoration.htm

Wyno · Nov 28, 2007

Hi Darinwc,
I was looking on the f295 website and one of the members there has posted photos and description of how to make your own bellows. It almost looks easy enough for me to try, when my broken arm mends.
Mike

walter23 · Nov 28, 2007

With all due respect to Barry, I bought his pamphlet and I saw some problems with his method, especially for the tapered bellows. It might work for a large bellows where a bit of slop wouldn't matter, but it wasn't very precise and I think you'd definitely have problems in a case where your dimensions were critical (e.g. on a smaller camera).

Greg_E said:
Try a search for camera bellows here, there are a few really good threads on it. Inparticular you will find information on getting a book from Barry Young that I suggest, as well as a free download from another place that I suggest. There is also a good indepth discussion about making tapered bellows with some design suggestions that you should read.

Greg_E · Nov 29, 2007

There was another free file that did a nice job on tapered bellows. There was also a good thread on building a tapered bellows and I think there was a spreadsheet to help get the correct sizes of the stiffeners. For me this is all library stuff, I read it all and adapt everything I've read to the application at hand. So I still say Barry's book is a good reference to have on hand.

CRhymer · Nov 29, 2007

Hello Greg and Walter,

I agree with both of you. I bought Barry's book, and I have to say there wasn't much in it that I didn't already have for free. Except (this is important), I have spent a lot of time over two years collecting layout information (available in many places for free) and sources of supply (a little more difficult). If one is starting from scratch and wants to save time, Barry's book will get you going quickly. The tricky bit, which is not dealt with fully by any source that I have seen, is converting layout from large to small formats. That is, bellows do not scale exactly. The thickness of materials and the amount one has to allow for the folds is very different for a 20"x24" - 60" draw set and for a small folder. Many people would be able to make large or ultra large format bellows with a little planning, skill and practice. Making bellows for small folders is another issue. Although I am mainly working with LF and ULF at present, I have a box full of very usable folders with bad bellows. Commercial replacements are too expensive and DIY is very difficult. I would be very interested if anyone has a solution.

Cheers,
Clarence

Nathan Smith · Nov 29, 2007

CRhymer said:
... I bought Barry's book, and I have to say there wasn't much in it that I didn't already have for free. Except (this is important), I have spent a lot of time over two years collecting layout information (available in many places for free) and sources of supply (a little more difficult). If one is starting from scratch and wants to save time, Barry's book will get you going quickly. ...

I bought Barry's book as well and I agree with you on all points. It is a good book, especially for pulling all of the information together. The real value of the book would come into play if you plan to make more than one copy of the same bellows, as he spends the vast majority of the time on using a CAD program to do the layout, and then having the resulting layout printed professionally. At present I don't have a CAD program and anything I do will be a one-off, so I'm not using that. Still, it's a good book and I'm glad I bought it.

Nathan

Greg_E · Nov 29, 2007

I went looking for my other "book" and found it. Here is the link, and about half way down the page is a link for a word document of the information.
http://pheugo.com/cameras/folders/folders.html

CRhymer · Nov 29, 2007

Hello Greg,

Thank you for the link. I think I have read it before, but didn't have it book-marked or downloaded. I have bought shutter curtain material (which I have not tried yet for bellows) in "bulk" from a seller in Japan. I don't recall his name at present. The problem is getting material that is thin enough, opaque and in a large enough piece, at a reasonable price. I think he was willing to sell larger pieces, but I went on to other projects while my old folders languish.

Cheers,
Clarence

phfitz · Nov 29, 2007

darinwc,

"I have a handfull of 'project' cameras that need new bellows."

What size camera bellows were you looking for?

darinwc · Nov 30, 2007

A thronton-pickard type half plate
a conley 4x5 folding box type
a 4x10 project
and id like a bag bellows for my zone vi vermont type

Jim Fitzgerald · Dec 1, 2007

I have a very nice bag bellows for a Zone VI. PM me and we can talk about it.

Jim

the BELLOWS problem

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