The Academic Perspective?

davetravis · Aug 1, 2007

TheFlyingCamera said:
Dave- I absolutely agree that what first and foremost makes you a better photographer is the same thing that gets you to Carnegie Hall- practice practice practice.

I would disagree however that viewing images by other photographers in books is radically different from viewing images by other photographers in a camera club slide competition. It is only by viewing the work of others that we come to know what is possible, to attempt it ourselves. Certainly, it is easier to get an answer about "how did you do THAT?" from the live person across the table than it is from the book if the book doesn't have the exact question you want to ask written out with the answer beside it. Books aren't as interactive as people are.

I think you're somewhat missing the spirit of the original question though - If I'm not mistaken, the purpose of the original question was to ask if you have ever done academic work relating to photography, and how does that academic work influence the photos you take. Personally, having a background in art history and pre-modern literature has had a big influence on my photography, because it has inspired the kinds of images I like to create. I draw on image and textual referents from antiquity to the Renaissance, just as the painters and poets and playwrights of the Renaissance did, and artists have continued to do up until nearly the modern period. With the arrival of the post-modern, abstract expressionist movements, the interest in relating to those humanist ideas has gone away, to be replaced by a de-humanization and abstraction to the point that art is now only about art, and not about the people who make it. I want my artwork to bring back the human element in art, and to keep it relevant to the audiences who view it.

That's how my academic background influences my photography.

Hi FC,
I really liked your Hercules portfolio.
The OP also asked about non-academics.
I think we're on the same page, just saying it in different words.
I lost myself in the published, academic world.
Those who came before, did, and continue, to inspire me.
But I reached the point where it became cold, and indifferent, almost other-worldly.
I needed the real and satient contact of other photogs
to keep me going.
To confirm that what I was trying, either in sucess or failure, was worth the effort.
For me, that's what it's all about.
DT

firecracker · Aug 2, 2007

Well, I studied visual anthropology, which is a theory-based study and a science, in my undergrad, and I didn't choose to go to grad school because I didn't really fit in that kind of institution... Besides I was not interested in teaching the subject.

But I got what I needed, which was primarily the kind of frame that I could use to see the world with certain ethics and morals, and from that point on for me it's been about traveling with a camera, recording the scenes and events, and making works that hopefully and successfully represent my culture, etc.

As far as my academic influences go, if I hadn't studied visual anthropology, I probably would not have known the works of Jean Rouch and the meaning of the term, "ethno fiction."

MurrayMinchin · Aug 2, 2007

mhv said:
I think we're primarily interested in making photography, but I would like to know whether you have any scholarly experience about it, and whether you find it makes any difference in your work. I'm also interested by the point of view of those who are not in the scholarly world, and how they perceive it.

Compared to most in this thread, I'm an uneducated lout. I did manage to break free of this little town at roads end on the edge of the continent to attend two fine art colleges, and to take a one year photography course, so I have dipped my toes (barely) in the shallow end of the pool of knowledge.

I can see how the discipline of attaining a masters degree in anything can only help ones photography, as photography requires control over many intertwined processes. I can also see how some people would benefit from immersing themselves in the history of art, but knowing about great art doesn't automatically mean you can produce even good art. What I found was if a person didn't have 'it' artistically, no amount of training was going to draw it out. Artistic vision can be guided, cajolled, massaged, refined, or focused, but it can't be instilled within a person who's incapable of independant artistic impulses.

My photography is all about the amazement I feel towards the environment I live in. The absolute embrace I feel when I walk into an old growth north coast BC temperate rainforest cannot be taught. It's a knowing which over time, since childhood, has percolated out from within as opposed to being implanted by someone else. This doesn't mean my photographs are any good mind you, because there's still that great leap from what I felt to putting it on paper in a way that moves somebody else!

You asked those who aren't in the scholarly world, how they perceived it. As I said earlier, the skills required to become accomplished in that world can only be a benefit. My question to you would be; who knows the Amazon rainforest better, a biologist or a pre-contact Amazon Indian? Can focussing on segments lead to a complete understanding of the whole? To put another spin on it - someone might be the most educated and most highly regarded obstetrician in the world, but if he's a man, he'll never really know what it's like to carry and give birth to a baby, or to feel a mothers love.

A thought provoking thread!

Murray

davetravis · Aug 2, 2007

What I found was if a person didn't have 'it' artistically, no amount of training was going to draw it out. Artistic vision can be guided, cajolled, massaged, refined, or focused, but it can't be instilled within a person who's incapable of indipendant artistic impulses.

My experience exactly, but I didn't have the words...
DT

Peter De Smidt · Aug 2, 2007

MurrayMinchin said:
My photography is all about the amazement I feel towards the environment I live in. The absolute embrace I feel when I walk into an old growth north coast BC temperate rainforest cannot be taught.

Murray

Murray once sent my daughter one of these prints. He captured his amazement spectacularly well. It's one of my favorite picture in my collection.

Back on topic, I taught university classes for 9 years, including philosophy of education. During that course, we'd read Dumbing Us Down by Gatto. Gatto pursuasively argues that we have way too much schooling, and this kills most students curiosity and sense of wonder. My experience teaching bore this out. The level of apathy was truly appalling.

kaygee · Aug 2, 2007

I've never felt apathy within school walls. Even in high school - but I had the benefit of going to a very arts oriented high school (only one like it in North America!!), and from there onto university, I only studied what I wanted there. If I could casually go to school for the rest of my life (meaning, if I could afford it) I would be happy!

Roger Hicks · Aug 2, 2007

Peter De Smidt said:
The level of apathy was truly appalling.

This is arguably even more true at secondary level, where teachers are expected to stand in for Party Commissars -- whichever Party is in charge. As long as education is a means of child-minding for younger children (allowing their parents to work) and concealing unemployment statistics for those in their late 'teens, how can it be otherwise?

Dave Miller · Aug 2, 2007

When I was at school I enjoyed two sorts of teacher, those that thought they could beat knowledge into my head; which wasn’t overly successful except in denying me sleep during school hours. The minority occasionally managed to spark an interest in their subject, and let me root out the detail; educationally they weren’t very successful either, but I enjoyed my time with them rather more.

Andy K · Aug 2, 2007

Seems to me the academic perspective centres overmuch on the navel.

Dave Miller · Aug 2, 2007

Andy K said:
Seems to me the academic perspective centres overmuch on the navel.

I'm sure you are right Andy, unfortunatly I can no longer directly observe mine.

Roger Hicks · Aug 2, 2007

Dave Miller said:
I'm sure you are right Andy, unfortunatly I can no longer directly observe mine.

Don't take this personally, because it certainly isn't aimed at you, but a good deal of third-rate academia does not deal with the navel but with recto-cranial inversion, or as we say in English, head up bum.

No, I can't do it either.

Andy K · Aug 2, 2007

Dave Miller said:
I'm sure you are right Andy, unfortunatly I can no longer directly observe mine.

It is tragic what can happen to a man when he's held down and force fed cheesecake.

MurrayMinchin · Aug 2, 2007

Hey Peter...Thanks for that

(I didn't mean to spark a 'here's what's wrong with education' tangent).

What I was trying to say is that universities allow one to aquire a certain type of knoweldge or skills, which aren't necessarily the best ones...there's much weight in wisdom gained through hundreds of generations of a people living in one place, or to things a person is born with that cannot be taught to others.

Murray

catem · Aug 2, 2007

MurrayMinchin said:
(I didn't mean to spark a 'here's what's wrong with education' tangent).

What I was trying to say is that universities allow one to aquire a certain type of knoweldge or skills, which aren't necessarily the best ones...there's much weight in wisdom gained through hundreds of generations of a people living in one place, or to things a person is born with that cannot be taught to others.

Murray

I agree absolutely though I'm not sure of the value of even thinking about 'best' or 'not best'...once we start analysing creativity and what influences it, we're up against some of the pitfalls of academia itself - (though of course analysis can offer huge insights).

Which doesn't mean it's not a good idea to try, but I think it's very complex and to do with what has made us the people we are as much as anything - try nailing that down and we'll be here until the middle of next week...

Roger Hicks · Aug 2, 2007

catem said:
...try nailing that down and we'll be here until the middle of next week...

WEEK? Year... Century...

Andy K · Aug 2, 2007

catem said:
I agree absolutely though I'm not sure of the value of even thinking about 'best' or 'not best'...once we start analysing creativity and what influences it, we're up against some of the pitfalls of academia itself - (though of course analysis can offer huge insights).

Which doesn't mean it's not a good idea to try, but I think it's very complex and to do with what has made us the people we are as much as anything - try nailing that down and we'll be here until the middle of next week...

You might as well try nailing jelly* to the ceiling.

*That's jell-o to you colonials

TheFlyingCamera · Aug 2, 2007

The biologist and the rainforest analogy reminds me of a joke about a farmer and a consultant.

This farmer is out with his dog, tending his herd of sheep, when this man in a fancy car comes driving along. The man stops and gets out, and says to the farmer, "Hey, are those sheep?."
The farmer replies, "yep."
The man says, "If I can tell you how many sheep you've got, can I have one?"
The farmer, looking over his acreage at his vast herd, says, "ok. fair bet."
The man pulls out something that looks like a pair of binoculars, and a pocket calculator, and scans the flock. He jots down some notes, and then he turns to the farmer. "You've got 360 sheep."
The farmer says, "a-yep. I do. How'd you figure that out?"
The man says, "well, I calculated that you have 120 acres of land. The ideal ratio of sheep to land is 3 sheep per acre. I then cross-checked a random sample of how many sheep were in the densest acre, and how many were in the least acre, and how many acres had what kind of density. You had the ideal average of three per acre."
The farmer said, "Wow. That's pretty good. Go ahead and pick out a sheep."
The man takes a sheep and is heading back to his car, when the farmer says," If I can guess your occupation, will you give me my sheep back?"
The man says, "sure! fair bet."
The farmer, without batting an eye, says, "you're a consultant."
The man says, "wow, you're right. how did you figure that out?"
The farmer says, "You came to tell me something I already knew, took forever to tell me, and charged me a small fortune to do it."
The consultant says, "wow. That's pretty good!"
The farmer says, "yep. Now, can I have my dog back?"

MurrayMinchin · Aug 2, 2007

catem said:
...I'm not sure of the value of even thinking about 'best' or 'not best'...

Thanks Cate, I agree - I was rushing out the door after lunch when I wrote that.

Murray

Bandicoot · Aug 2, 2007

kaygee said:
Peter - your adventures sound amazing - were these while you were doing research, or while you were the project photographer?

That is something I would love to get into. My two loves, together at last!

Some of both. The majority of the things I listed happened on two particular digs: on one I was engaged as Site Supervisor, but ended up as Expedition Surveyor, Expedition Photographer, and Acting Director at different times; the other I was specifically there as the photographer, but did some digging as well. Those two were one in Iraq (during the war with Iran, the one that was called the First Gulf War, before they found that GWB couldn't count up to three and re-numbered them for him ) and one in Ecuador.

I've had adventures in all sorts of places, but those two were the ones that produced the largest proportion of 'Indy' moments

I'm not really involved with archaeology much any more, but have kept up my membership of one of the societies and try not to get too out of touch - I have friends who are still working in the field. Maybe some time I'll get back to it - but it pays even less than photography (imagine that!) and is ruinous for the back and knees...

That said - there are plenty of excavations that will take volunteers on, some even run specifically as training digs, and you might find someone that was very happy to have you get involved and use your photographic skills.

Peter

Bandicoot · Aug 2, 2007

TheFlyingCamera said:
With the arrival of the post-modern, abstract expressionist movements, the interest in relating to those humanist ideas has gone away, to be replaced by a de-humanization and abstraction to the point that art is now only about art, and not about the people who make it.

I know what you're getting at, but I think that is a little sweeping, Not all post abstract expressionist art is so 'abstracted' - consider someone like Anthony Gormley. And of course there are those who have deliberately created works that draw on explicit references where the whole point is about how we approach the use of such references - Jeff Wall, Cindy Sherman...

Similarly, even (to go back in time) someone like Mondrian put a great deal of himself into how he chose to place the elements in his works, as is clear from his writings. This sort of work appears abstracted, but it is not truly de-humanised: perhaps it is a distillation rather than an abstraction.

But for all that, I am picking up on the exceptions - I don't dispute your point that a lot of more recent art has gone in the direction you suggest. Some of it I like for that (Anish Kapoor, to cite just one), but some has become arid and sterile.

Peter

catem · Aug 3, 2007

I think art is always about the people who make it.

Some artists are braver at revealing themselves in their work than others, and at crossing the boundaries of art and craft - one name that springs to mind is Grayson Perry, who won the Turner Prize a few years ago.

kaygee · Aug 3, 2007

Bandicoot said:
That said - there are plenty of excavations that will take volunteers on, some even run specifically as training digs, and you might find someone that was very happy to have you get involved and use your photographic skills.

Peter

Ah, I figured by the sound of it one of those had to at least be in the Middle East! I tell you, the more I grew up, the less I wanted the bullwhips and the pistols, and more just the quiet digging .

You know, you make a good point, I think I might try to find a dig to piggyback on.

Daniel_OB · Aug 6, 2007

MurrayMinchin you are correct. Artists are born, not made. However born artist still need to work 18 hour a day, and it is not difficult to him, but rather make him happy. Bull in school - bull out of school.
Ancient Greek artist did his task the best he could and it was not at the end of his brain that people, young and old, men and woman, will talk about him and his work thousands years later, he just toiled hard for his bread. And without knowledge of his work any today artist will have hard life, photographers too. Without knowledge what is meaning of "working of the soul" and wishing to be called artist right now (money sake) is like walk at night through a junge. Art is a continuous process and without knowing history of art many will call and dig*** joke "huge art", or even invent a name as "dig*** photography", and store and store and store, which is the very first sign he do not knows what he is doing. This is an example of a point where to them Academy (I mean real Academy) is really a must. But, well such people addorned this planet throughout history, and stupidity will never end.

And to original question: One of great think I got on Academy is not to spend my life looking for definition of art, especialy on internet, but rather seat and work to make living, and also to distinguish between mediums and to know limitations of each, and so to choose right one for the task.

DrPablo · Aug 7, 2007

I am an academic myself, though in the field of medicine.

I've found that when reading the primary literature in fields like social sciences, humanities, and arts, it is becoming more and more systematized and scientific. That doesn't mean that it lends itself to the same quantitative rigor as physics or chemistry, but it seems to me that the effort is there to add stringency to artistic study as well.

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