The 645's

cerber0s · Sep 9, 2024

I love my Fujica GW690, it produces amazing images and is straight forward and easy to use. Unfortunately the 6x9 negatives only give me 8 shots out of a 120-roll, which means that every photo is expensive. I figured I could cut film costs almost in half by adding a 645 camera to the stable, so I’m looking at Mamiya 645 and Pentax 645. I know there are others but those two seem most common around here. If (when) I spend the money I want something with interchangeable lenses and interchangeable film backs.

I’m leaning towards Mamiya for no other reason that they seem more common and easier to get. What I wonder is if you’d recommend one system over the other based on: Availability of good lenses, availability of other accessories, general quality. Light meter is a plus, but no requirement.

I’ve been looking at Mamiya 645 Pro and Super. Not quite sure what the Pentax equivalents are called.

Thanks!

chriscrawfordphoto · Sep 9, 2024

Pentax 645 does not have interchangeable backs.

With Mamiya 645 cameras, only two models, the 645 Super and 645 Pro (and Pro-TL) have them. The other M645 models do not.

I used a Mamiya 645 Super to do a lot of my best work. The lenses are excellent and inexpensive. The 645 Super had some issues with film winding gears being weak that were fixed in the similar 645 Pro; so I would get the Pro or Pro-TL.

Paul Howell · Sep 9, 2024

I've been looking at both Mamiya and Pentax 645. The later model Pentax have AF, but increased cost. What I like about the standard Pentax 645 is built in motor wind, and 1/1000 of a second shutter, meaning it could be used for sports. Mamiya are more common and so a second body for parts? Both set of lens seems to be excllent. I shot both 6X6 and 6X9, looking from something that is lighter.

MattKing · Sep 9, 2024

I've owned both the 645 Super - since sold - and the 645 Pro.
I have friends who own one of the later, auto-focus Mamiya 645 models, some of which were designed to work with both film and no longer made digital backs.
I've been very happy with my Mamiya 645 cameras.
The older models like the 1000s are also fine cameras, but in addition to not offering interchangeable backs, they are also quite old.
There is one relatively recent model - the 645e, which also does not offer interchangeable backs, but it is apparently less robust than the Pro or Pro-Tl.
All the manual focus lenses will work on all the bodies, although with stop down metering on the auto-focus models.
With respect to other accessories, the interchangeability varies a lot but, as an example, the metering prism on my Pro is actually the one that came out for the Super.

cerber0s · Sep 9, 2024

chriscrawfordphoto said:
Pentax 645 does not have interchangeable backs.

With Mamiya 645 cameras, only two models, the 645 Super and 645 Pro (and Pro-TL) have them. The other M645 models do not.

I used a Mamiya 645 Super to do a lot of my best work. The lenses are excellent and inexpensive. The 645 Super had some issues with film winding gears being weak that were fixed in the similar 645 Pro; so I would get the Pro or Pro-TL.

Paul Howell said:
I've been looking at both Mamiya and Pentax 645. The later model Pentax have AF, but increased cost. What I like about the standard Pentax 645 is built in motor wind, and 1/1000 of a second shutter, meaning it could be used for sports. Mamiya are more common and so a second body for parts? Both set of lens seems to be excllent. I shot both 6X6 and 6X9, looking from something that is lighter.

Thank you! That is good info.

rduraoc · Sep 9, 2024

I just got a Pentax 645N because I wanted AF and don't need interchangeable backs. Lovely camera to use, but "lightness" is surely not one of its attributes, especially if, like me, you're coming from a Fuji GS645S..

benveniste · Sep 9, 2024

The Pentax 645 family does have interchangeable inserts, but you can't easily change them mid-roll. For people who proofed with polaroids, this made it a non-starter.

Mamiya offered a faster "normal" lens (f/1.9 vs f/2.8), a and an ultra-wide (28mm vs. 33 or 35mm). Pentax offers a very useful 33-55mm f/4.5 AF zoom and an autofocus 120mm macro lens. I came late to the medium format "game" and chose Pentax, but either system could work for you.

Dustin McAmera · Sep 9, 2024

'I reckon I could really save money by buying another camera'

That there is the road to hell.

Paul Howell · Sep 9, 2024

Which has the longest lens?

reddesert · Sep 9, 2024

If 645 and interchangeable film backs are a requirement then the Bronica ETR series is also worth looking at. I don't know how it is in Sweden, but in the US they seem to be fairly common. The Bronicas have leaf shutters in the lenses as opposed to the focal plane shutters of the Mamiya and Pentax. When these cameras were commonly used with fill or studio flash that was a significant distinction (recalling many of the users were studio or wedding photographers). However, for today's film market it seems less critical for many people.

benveniste · Sep 9, 2024

Paul Howell said:
Which has the longest lens?

Pentax has a 600mm f/5.6 and will work with the Pentax 800mm f/4 and f/6.7 from the 67 system. AFAIK, Mamiya's longest lens is 500mm.

images39 · Sep 9, 2024

I've been using a Mamiya 645 Pro as my main camera for about 14 years. It's been completely reliable, and the quality of the lenses is superb. I use it with a winder and metered prism.

The ergonomics of the Pentax 645N/NII are great, but it doesn't have interchangeable backs. That's probably a big drawback if you like to switch between film types while shooting. Also, the Mamiya lenses seem more commonly available, at least in my perception.

Dale

abruzzi · Sep 9, 2024

When I was first looking at medium format, and lot of people online played down the interchangeable back thing, saying you don't really use it much. I've found I use it constantly, I almost always go out with at least two backs--one E6 and one B&W. So if you think you're going to use it don't let anyone talk you out of it.

645 with interchangeable backs means later Mamiya or ETR. Or it means a 6x6 interchangable lens camera with a 645 back. I kind of wished I'd started there since my ETRSi and SQ-A are kind of redundant.

JParker · Sep 10, 2024

cerber0s said:
I’ve been looking at Mamiya 645 Pro and Super. Not quite sure what the Pentax equivalents are called.

Thanks!

I am using the Mamiya 645 Pro TL.
In my experience it has the following advantages:
+ huge lens selection (biggest for any medium format system)
+ good up to excellent lens quality (depending on the lens model)
+ very precise metering
+ interchangeable film backs
+ lots of accessoires available
+ MLU
+ affordable prices on the used market
+ repair services available.

Disadvantages:
- aperture not shown in the viewfinder
- manual focussing on the matte screen more difficult compared to other cameras (at least to the others I own and use); use of the split-image focus indicator recommended
- ergonomics are poor (well, that is with most medium format cameras compared to 35mm cameras, especially modern 35mm SLRs). Pentax 645 is definitely better in that regard.

Overall I am satiesfied and will continue using mine.

loccdor · Sep 10, 2024

I very much enjoy using the Mamiya 645 (the old manual Junior version, M645J). I was able to pick it up for just over $100, plus a few $20's more for a viewfinder, insert, and adapter so that I could use my existing Pentacon Six mount lenses on it. Since you mentioned shots per roll, I'll note that it's possible to get 30 shots with it using 220 film, making it one of the least "reloady" medium formats available. I just took mine on a trip where I shot 15 rolls of 220 film without a single issue, even using Shanghai GP3 220 of dubious quality control.

I was considering the Pentax 645 but hearing about the dark viewfinder put me off of it.

The M645J's main disadvantages are that it can be easy to accidentally press the shutter (that's why it has a shutter lock and you need to use it), will realistically require manual light metering, and there isn't a handle to grab onto on the body: it's pretty much just a box. I wouldn't attach a handle though, as that would make it too bulky.

The native lenses are great and tons of lenses can be adapted to it due to the short flange distance.

Mirror slap can be a problem with medium format SLRs so you will want to get a model with lockup if you do a lot of tripod work between the 2 second to 1/30 second shutter range.

cerber0s · Sep 10, 2024

Dustin McAmera said:
'I reckon I could really save money by buying another camera'

That there is the road to hell.

My logic is unquestionable!

cerber0s · Sep 10, 2024

reddesert said:
If 645 and interchangeable film backs are a requirement then the Bronica ETR series is also worth looking at. I don't know how it is in Sweden, but in the US they seem to be fairly common. The Bronicas have leaf shutters in the lenses as opposed to the focal plane shutters of the Mamiya and Pentax. When these cameras were commonly used with fill or studio flash that was a significant distinction (recalling many of the users were studio or wedding photographers). However, for today's film market it seems less critical for many people.

The Bronicas are not as common here as the Mamiyas, or even Pentax. The lenses also seem to be a lot more expensive.

cerber0s · Sep 10, 2024

Thank you all for the information! Lots of great stuff.

cerber0s · Sep 10, 2024

loccdor said:
I very much enjoy using the Mamiya 645 (the old manual Junior version, M645J). I was able to pick it up for just over $100, plus a few $20's more for a viewfinder, insert, and adapter so that I could use my existing Pentacon Six mount lenses on it. Since you mentioned shots per roll, I'll note that it's possible to get 30 shots with it using 220 film, making it one of the least "reloady" medium formats available. I just took mine on a trip where I shot 15 rolls of 220 film without a single issue, even using Shanghai GP3 220 of dubious quality control.

I was considering the Pentax 645 but hearing about the dark viewfinder put me off of it.

The M645J's main disadvantages are that it can be easy to accidentally press the shutter (that's why it has a shutter lock and you need to use it), will realistically require manual light metering, and there isn't a handle to grab onto on the body: it's pretty much just a box. I wouldn't attach a handle though, as that would make it too bulky.

The native lenses are great and tons of lenses can be adapted to it due to the short flange distance.

Mirror slap can be a problem with medium format SLRs so you will want to get a model with lockup if you do a lot of tripod work between the 2 second to 1/30 second shutter range.

Cool! Where do you find 220-film these days?

ant! · Sep 10, 2024

reddesert said:
The Bronicas have leaf shutters in the lenses as opposed to the focal plane shutters of the Mamiya and Pentax.

For Pentax, there are two leafshutter lenses, the 75mm LS and the 135mm LS, in case you need them. I guess Mamiya had some as well.

Buy yes, if you want to change film mid-roll, Pentax is out. I never do that, so love my Pentax 645 and even more the 645n (later AF-version, even though I use it often with manual focus lenses, with the optional split-screen viewfinder screen). The manual lenses (A) are much cheaper then the autofocus (FA) ones, I found many cheap. But I guess the same can be said for Mamiya and Bronica.

ant! · Sep 10, 2024

cerber0s said:
Cool! Where do you find 220-film these days?

Yep, all those systems have 220 film inserts/holders as well. New film seems rare (so the 220 holders/inserts are cheaper then the 120 equivalents), seems like there are some from Reflx Labs (Aerocolor or ECN-2 with remjet), and Shanghai GP3 is back in 220. I still have a few rolls of Portra and Delta 400 in 220 in the freezer.

On 120 film, the Pentax 645 shoots 15 images, the 645n 16 images. Check what the Mamiya and Bronicas give you...

ant! · Sep 10, 2024

loccdor said:
I was considering the Pentax 645 but hearing about the dark viewfinder put me off of it.

While the viewfinder of the Pentax 645 isn't the brightest, it is optimized for easy manual focusing and works fine. The one of the 645n is brighter, but the standard screen is without manual focusing aid (but works still ok manually using just the bare screen to see the focus, plus the focus confirmation LED), I found the one with split-screen patch, but this is a bit difficult to find, but works great. Just a few days ago I was using it, after using for a while much more the Mamiya 6 (90s 6x6 rangefinder), and I was thinking immediately: Damn, this viewfinder is nice! (of course, this is SLR vs rangefinder, so not directly comparable).

Hassasin · Sep 10, 2024

I think interchangeable film back is a passe argument today.

Of all 645s, P645 was one and only outside the box concept.

Dark viewfinder? At worst same as for the rest of them and arguably the easiest to focus on regardless of "darkness".

While the AF bodies, 645N and especially NII, are seen as much of an improvement and have reportedly best MF AF system ... to this day, I cannot get used to the NII over the original. MF on all Pentax lenses is so sweet, mirror dampening only surpassed by Mamiya RB67 ... only the motor wind makes it is louder then it needs to be, especially where you don't want it to be with no way to switch it off.

Bronica ETRSi would be my next choice, but you would need to get the AE III prism finder to get it close to P645 in functionality. Then the Speed Grip of Bronica beats P645 motor advance every time. If changing backs is key, then this comes before P645 too.

pbromaghin · Sep 10, 2024

cerber0s said:
My logic is unquestionable!

Instead of interchangeable backs, just get
2 cameras. Think how much more you’ll save!

Paul Howell · Sep 10, 2024

I am moving towards a Pentax, I no longer shoot color film so interchangeable backs are not prime consideration. I do shoot sports and wildlife so a long lens is a +.

The 645's

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