The 11x14 shuffle! PL100?

Ok, I couldn't take it anymore. Brush developing (DBI) each 11x14 negative one at a time was getting a little maniacal.

I reached down and gabbed my cajones and dumped in two negs for a go, no scratches round one. Next I went to four negs at once and viola! no scratches, holes or mottling...... I went on to finish the processing session with two more four neg dunks, all these came out flawless, this I can live with.

Lessons learned? I first practiced with lights on, I researched this site as well as M&P AZO site for DBI/shuffle methods. Emulsion side up and very slowww concentrated movements. Yes the very easily scratched EFKE PL100 can be conquered.
Mike A

its gonna bite you in the buuuuuuttt maybe not now or next week but its gonna bite you in th buuuuuutttt!


lee\c

I agree with Lee, emulsion up will get you. I found when I screwed up a neg it was traced to pulling the neg out from under at a diaginal. The corner will scratch the one being pulled. When I pulled it out straight I had good luck. I also bowed the film in the center to drop it on top so I wouldn't be digging in a corner.

Oh come on, Mike. How many 11x14 negs can you possibly have to process at once, really. 6? 8? 10 at the very most? You take hours and spend a small fortune getting the image onto the film so take the extra 10 minutes to get the image out of the film Mike. Go 1 by 1 or you will regret it - especially with PL100 (and I speak from experience) - as the extra time and effort is minuscule overall.

There is no way I could manage to NOT scratch the negative--I try and try but damn--I'll stick with rotary especially with 11x14 and 8x10. Just too much effort involved with large acreage films for me to blow it all by scratching---I've ruined a couple of 8x10 negs that way and I give up on that way of processing. BTW--I've never used the Efke films in 8x10 or 11x14 as I'm still using some old EktaPan in 11x14 as well as some old 11x14 TMax but sooner or later I'll run out and now with no 11x14 Ilford or PhotoWarehouse I'll be in the market BUT NOT TODAY!! EktaPan is/was a terrific film in 11x14!!

I have yet to tray-process 11x14 Efke, so I'm not qualified to advise Mike on whether or not his shuffle processing will lead to problems (though I tend to agree with the nay-sayers, Mike!), but I have nervously shuffle-processed the 8x10 Efke film with luck —4 sheets at a time—, partly (I think) thanks to a little trick I'd like to pass on:

I round the corners of each sheet with a fingernail clipper. I've been doing this for years on 120 film to ease its loading onto reels, so I'd thought I'd try the technique on sheets. So far, it has worked OK, but as Mike says, it helps to handle the film "maniacally" (especially Efke).

The other possibility —to satisfy your impatience, Mike!— is the old Navy technique of taping down film sheets in a single tray, and pouring & dumping your chemicals. I've only done this for 4x5, but I imagine you could do four 11x14 sheets in a 2x3 foot tray. In fact, you could still brush develop, using this method. It's just a question of more surface to deal with.

The technique is simple: using a tape such as that used to hold 120 film to its paper backing, you tape down two diagonal corners of the film —emulsion side up and not too far into the image area— to the tray bottom. You must be careful to let the film "bow" upwards slightly to allow liquid to flow underneath. I pre-position my chemicals in handled pitchers. They tend to be easier for me to find and handle in the dark.

One possible problem with this technique with a film as large as 11x14: If your tray bottom is completely flat I think it would be difficult to bow the sheet of film sufficiently enough to keep it from sticking. In this case a convex-dimple-bottomed tray such as a Deville would be perfect.

Anyway, as I don't usually do inspection processing, I use Jobo tanks (and mostly, Ilford films). Helps save my nerves and keeps my brushes free to clean lenses! But, like many of you —Mike in case—, techniques may be subject to change depending on what looks fun and interesting or "better" to try!

JosBurke said:

sooner or later I'll run out and now with no 11x14 Ilford or PhotoWarehouse I'll be in the market BUT NOT TODAY!! EktaPan is/was a terrific film in 11x14!!

Click to expand...

Isn't HP5+ still available in 11x14 ( admittedly at a significant cost) with at least promised continued availability in Ilford's product availability list? I shoot only upto 8x10 but take the availability of larger film yet as a reassurance.

Sincerely,

Hany.

If you're really careful, particularly as regards not pulling the bottom sheet out so the corner of the sheet above it drags across the emulsion, you can tray process Efke and you'll get no scratches that will be visible on a contact print (i.e., scratches of the sort that make you curse when you pull the damaged neg out of the fixer tray).

Look at the negative, though, carefully with a 6x or stronger loupe and look at the whole sheet on the emulsion side at an angle to the light, or try scanning the negative and look at it enlarged. You'll see very light abrasions, in my experience, even if the negative does not appear to be scratched. On a contact print, even in areas of open sky or solid color, these won't show up. If you're planning on enlarging, though, you might consider dip-and-dunk or drum processing.

In my experience Efke is even prone to damage from chemical surging in tubes if one is using conventional agitation.

The only way that I have found to process Efke with no damage is minimal agitation and with the tubes full of chemical. This eliminates a lot of the potential for damage.

I would not consider processing in trays with that film. I applaud anyone who can do it without damage.

I shoot a bunch of PL100 and tray develop as many as 10 8x10 negatives, 6 8x20 negatives and 6 11x14 negatives in trays and over the last six months + I had only two modestly scratched negatives and I attributed these to the wash and not the development. I believe that I could actually do a few more sheets at a time if I needed to.

For me the keys are 1) to be slow and methodical and 2) secondly I find the DBI infrared monocle to be of great assistance because I can see what I am doing.


Try it.

No need to hope anyone's 'luck' holds. There is not any luck involved. It is a learned, repeatable and dependable procedure even with the Efke films in 11x14. Trying it may be good, but not good enough. A proper technique either wasn't used or known it appears. Each to his own but shuffling works consistently even with big negs - technique and care applying it are all that is necessary.

I've processed hundreds of sheets of PL100 (all 8x10). It does indeed scratch easier than other films, but it's certainly manageable if one has good technique. I use homemade tubes and constant agitation in a tub of water and never get uneven development. However, I have occasionally curled the film around too much and scratched the edge with the corner of the sheet. This was purely the result of poor technique on my part. Once I learned how to extract the film from the tube, it never happened again. I gave up on trays with this film because I was too lazy to develop a good technique, but I know many folks who do it successfully. Use whatever works for you.

Again, luck isn't in the equation. You weren't lucky, you simply did it right. If you did it right once, you can do it again, and again and... Your conclusion that you will fail must hold true for you, I'm sure, but it doesn't arise from the procedures and tecniques themselves as many (is there safety in numbers?) can attest. What the majority can or can't do is not in view even though you're:

"not alone in finding tray shuffling too risky"

Being presscriptive to others on the basis of a your one-off trial is unwarranted as is projecting the future, potential success or failure of your experiment.

EktaPan is/was a terrific film in 11x14!!

I still have some ektapan in 5x7 and it is a very nice film

lee\c

Arguments asside, thanks for all the posts, both positive and negative. There were a couple technique recomendations I'll give a try. I have to agree with a few posters that a couple runs through this specific process does not warrant a reliable consistant process. I'll report back after an acceptable number of negs has been processed.
Mike A

wow! did I type all those process's? Sorry, I should really proof read my posts a little more.