That's it! I'm designing and building my own film processor.

Neal said:

Hello,

This was done for less than $200. It does, however, use Jobo tanks and their magnets for driving. It does not have a lift. I built it so that I would not have to worry about replacing specialized parts. It uses a synchronous motor that runs at around 75rpm and uses cheap timer relays for reversing. I have a little .avi clip but I couldn't upload it.

Good luck,

Neal Wydra

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Very interesting. I made very cheap and simple rotary processor, cost was something like $30 - $40. It works but I bought a motor with too slow gearing so max rpm is about 20. Works nice with E-6 thought.

The next version will have some kind of a water circulation pump and heater.

I kept the control unit in separate box so that I don't have to worry about splashing water.

A sample video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suQTE3wx_Jk
and another: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vb79ATjqNQo

Dear Jukka,

I find your design to be much more creative than mine. I am limited to Jobo tanks unless I modify those from other manufacturers. I think you will have little problem adding temperature control and agitation. Your electronics are nicer too, mine are clumsy in comparison. My package is a bit cleaner but I don't have the luxury of keeping it set up in one place.

Neal Wydra

I'm also interested in where this project will go. Keep us all posted.

michaelbsc said:

There are some pretty inexpensive Chinese made temperature controller in evilBay. I just bought one, and it looks good so far, but I haven't given it a thorough workout yet. My gut feeling, however, is that it's going to be able to provide dead on accurate temperature control. Most items like this seem to be rock solid, and the technology is old enough that it's not hard to get right.

If you aren't comfortable with the electronics PM me and I'll try to work out some details for you, so long as you promise to return the design for my part to the community. Kind of a Hardware Open Source design. I'll put this on your site, too.

Click to expand...

Hi posted a quick note on your homepage, I am a computer scientist (actually holds a Ph.D. in computer science (you all know that BS stand for bull sh%t, Ms for More of the same Sh%t, and Ph.D for Piled higher and Deeper ) but I do some small projects programing and controling electronics (robots, weather stations, video, alarms....).

I would really suggest that this kind of project is done using Arduino (http://www.arduino.cc/), its an open source electronic design were a full control ship cost around $20 (depends on how many you buy). The arduio is also very easy to program, all the hard "fluf-fluf" is taken away and its very easy to control and read from the hardware.

Actually i have already done some design drawings for a fully automatic processor using a ardunio board, so i will just out line quickly what could be done, and the cost.

Arduino Pro 328 - 5V/16MHz - $19.95

One Wire Digital Temperature Sensor - DS18B20 - $4.25
(accuracy is from –55°C to +125°C (–67°F to +257°F) ±0.5°C accuracy from –10°C to +85°C)

A programable motor drive, like a 15A IRF7862PBF which cost $39.95
It should also be said that its possible to use step drives, they are weaker but you can control them to a fraction of a degree (but I personal dont think that kind of accurate is needed)

then of course the pump, a motor to drive the tank, some mosfets to control the pump and motor, a heating unit (to heat the bath), wires, and buttons and control stuff. The good thing is that to program all this is very easy.

Actually its very easy to program in different programs, make the programs editable. Its even possible to add alarms for water leve, if the tank stop rotating, temperature levels.

There are even displays (even touch screens but we should not go there, they are a pain in the a%% to program) that can very easy to be added so the process can be tracked.

The program running on the Arduino can very easy be updated using a usb cable connected to a computer. It would even be possible too make it possible to control the unit from a computer, loggin rotations, temperature ....., i have even built programs running on my iphone communicating with a arduino board (cant say more because i developed it for a company and I signed a Non-disclosure agreement)

Just to show of some videos that is in the area of such a machinen

Ardunio driving a motor
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Avm4blyp7Y

Ardunio driving a pump system
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELLUB81m5Z4

Ardunio temperature
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iypt-Y4ytac

Ardunio temperature logger
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sH5kaKO8Vw&feature=related

Ardunio controlling a Mosfet
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JC9qeVjnScA&feature=related

iPhone controlled garage door opener using Arduino (but this uses a webserver which is not really like running it native on the iphone, he could run it from any computer)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8UV2BtndW8

iBot - a real iPhone robot made with Arduino
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mi3kmdcAXMU&feature=related

Well, you might ask if the platform is fast enough to respond, well, people have written helicopter stabilizer and stuff, but I think this is the best to show of the speed

(just remember that if the power were on all the time the magnet would hit the coil, if its off to long the magnet would be out of reach to pull back..)

Just remember this kind of programing will take some weekends to wire together and program, but its not more. The accuracy will be either the same or better then Jobo (it comes down to how the temperature sensors are placed also and the flow in the tank).

I have even made a design skiss of a fully automatic system, including a lift, motor and pumps to replace a ATL system, but haven got around thinking of the hardware design.

if you are interested shoot me a PM and I give you my private email.

cheers
(sorry for the english, its not my first language)

I've an old CPE2 with a brand-new, Jobo-factory refurbished lift that I've been meaning to sell for several years. Last time I used it it worked just fine. I now use my CPA-2 so I don't need the CPE. If you're interested, I'll sell the whole setup (CPE2 base unit and lift) for $75 plus shipping.

Rich

I like my Jobos for their form factor and love the lift. Some of maintaining the machines would be a lot simpler if somebody at Jobo would step up and publish oem info for stupid things like the motor, power supply and whatnot so you could just fix 'em...EC

sandholm - you'll need a better temperature sensor than that. The Jobo CPP unit is supposed to be accurate to 0.1 of a degree and appears to cycle up to 0.2 degree either side of the target temperature as it goes through the heat/cool cycle, which is probably good enough to keep a steady temperature in the drum and bottles. You need that sort of precision to ensure repeatability, i.e that if you keep the controls set the same then the process will be exactly the same.

I'd buy one, keep us posted, if you can let it handle 4x5

I've been on-and-off working on plans for a similar device, but my design was going to have automatic filling/draining of each chemical, like a cross between a jobo processor and a minilab. The thing I've had trouble with, though, is the valves. Valves that are made of materials that don't corrode when in contact with photographic chemicals are expensive. Electronically controlled ones are even more expensive. From that I've come to the conclusion that a dip-and-dunk is probably a better idea for full automation.
I never quite understood the expense in jobo processors when you still need to manually exchange chemicals. If I had to keep coming back every eight or so minutes to drain and refill, I might as well stay in the darkroom and process by hand.

You can repair your Jobo with a certain windshield wiper motor, from what I have read here on APUG, if it is the motor that is the problem.

But good luck to you! Let us know how it progresses.

paul ewins said:

sandholm - you'll need a better temperature sensor than that. The Jobo CPP unit is supposed to be accurate to 0.1 of a degree and appears to cycle up to 0.2 degree either side of the target temperature as it goes through the heat/cool cycle, which is probably good enough to keep a steady temperature in the drum and bottles. You need that sort of precision to ensure repeatability, i.e that if you keep the controls set the same then the process will be exactly the same.

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Well, i will look into this, but i doubt that the electronic components of the CPP has a 0.1 degree of precision (that is really really hard(read expensive) to archive). What I have seen is that some manufactures do like 1000 reads from a temperature sensor and then average these values out, and show that value in the display and then claim that they have accuracy of 0.1, this is of course completely wrong.

Why i dont think they have 0.1 is due to the heating element, it wont be that responsive, nor will they have a good enough temperature sensor (or sample ratio of the control unit, but this i guess....)

Now, in reality it could be less then 0.1 degree of temperature shift in the water bath. This due to the energy that is stored up in the water reservoir and with enough agitation from the pump and constant heat loss, that precision is probably not that hard to archive.

So there is two things here, what the electronics can do, and what the reality is when the electronics and the water interact, and the only way to test this is to build a rig and see what happens...

cheers

Why reinvent the wheel? The Phototherm SSK4 and SSK8 do all of the things talked about here, and more. They are still in production, and made in the USA of reasonably user-servicable parts. Unless you just love the DIY aspect of making your own film processor, it would be much simpler to buy a used SSk-4 for $300-800 on ebay. They don't do prints but they do film beautifully up to at least 4x5 and possibly larger.

Just sayin'...
-Ed

EdSawyer said:

Why reinvent the wheel? The Phototherm SSK4 and SSK8 do all of the things talked about here, and more. They are still in production, and made in the USA of reasonably user-servicable parts. Unless you just love the DIY aspect of making your own film processor, it would be much simpler to buy a used SSk-4 for $300-800 on ebay. They don't do prints but they do film beautifully up to at least 4x5 and possibly larger.

Just sayin'...
-Ed

Click to expand...

I was wrong, they do sell it in europe, the problem were that I always clicked "International" but if you click Agents there are agents in France, England... but why dont they list it under International beats me... and if they cant produce a homepage...... well... sorry
cheers

The Phototherm units are about $4000 new. I have NEVER seen one on eBay in the price range stated.

Contrary to popular belief, most of the historical "motor" problems with the JOBO units are related to the motor control board failure and not the motor itself.

This is more difficult then replacing the motor (which is no longer available). The problem with the motor controller can be easily solved using pulse width modulation (a technique first invented in robotics control).

This is the approach we are taking to build our unit.

Hi Tony--any updates on your progress? Thanks.

We've got all the electronics spec'd out, and the cost for all (less the motor, pump and heater) is around $100. The heater is around $9, the circulating pump $14. The mechanicals are about 75% designed.

The $300 price-point looks attainable.

We're working with an electronic engineer from MIT, he is handling the electronic controls, and board design.

We should have a working prototype in a month or so.

tonyjuliano said:

The Phototherm units are about $4000 new. I have NEVER seen one on eBay in the price range stated.

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And the spare parts are expensive, too. Sure, it's good that they're still available, but when one part costs $400 to replace... well that really explains why it makes sense to "reinvent the wheel" :-D

rawhead said:

tonyjuliano said:

The Phototherm units are about $4000 new. I have NEVER seen one on eBay in the price range stated.

Click to expand...

And the spare parts are expensive, too. Sure, it's good that they're still available, but when one part costs $400 to replace... well that really explains why it makes sense to "reinvent the wheel" :-D

Click to expand...

I have dealt with Phototherm a little. They're a commercial business supporting other commercial businesses. The hobby market isn't on their radar because the margins are too thin.

From a business perspective their prices make sense. But that doesn't help folks like us.

Here's a couple pictures of the one I cobbled together about a year ago.
I got tired of paying 15.00/roll for e6



I used a temp controller from the 'bay and a car door motor from the local junkyard.
Only thing special was that you need a Pt sensor element to get 0.1degree control.
I soldered stubs of stainless all thread on to the bottoms of regular processing tanks, that hook onto the rotating bar, so no expensive tanks, but you have to seal them by wrapping the top with electrical tape.

There is an electro-mechanical setup that reverses the motor every four rotations.
After about 40 rolls of film , the only trouble is the brushes for the motor are wearing out, so I can either check the local hardware store for replacements ,or just go and get another 20 dollar motor from the yard
rob

Sorry guys the pictures didn't go through
Here they are

http://www.flickr.com/photos/59235433@N05/5451084418/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/59235433@N05/5451084644/

rob

Keep this project going and keep us updated. I bet there will be a strong demand.

Curt

Many of the parts can be sourced cheaply from sources other than phototherm. Open one up and you will see how simple the parts are, for the non-custom stuff. Hell, for the dryer (built in) it's basically a commercial blowdrier bolted into the unit(!).

I bought mine brand new from Ebay for $600. Since then I saw at least 2 or 3 sell for between $300 and $800, in lesser condition in some cases, but still functional.

Phototherm is plenty aware of the hobby-user market, but they cater more to medical and industrial clients, however they are happy to support anyone who owns their products, whether bought new or not (in my experience).

rawhead said:

And the spare parts are expensive, too. Sure, it's good that they're still available, but when one part costs $400 to replace... well that really explains why it makes sense to "reinvent the wheel" :-D

Click to expand...

EdSawyer said:

Many of the parts can be sourced cheaply from sources other than phototherm. Open one up and you will see how simple the parts are, for the non-custom stuff. Hell, for the dryer (built in) it's basically a commercial blowdrier bolted into the unit(!).

I bought mine brand new from Ebay for $600. Since then I saw at least 2 or 3 sell for between $300 and $800, in lesser condition in some cases, but still functional.

Phototherm is plenty aware of the hobby-user market, but they cater more to medical and industrial clients, however they are happy to support anyone who owns their products, whether bought new or not (in my experience).

rawhead said:

And the spare parts are expensive, too. Sure, it's good that they're still available, but when one part costs $400 to replace... well that really explains why it makes sense to "reinvent the wheel" :-D

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

True, they are aware of the hobby market and not only are they willing to help, but they are happy to do so when possible.

I had a running conversation with the owner several years ago about their 4x5 adapter that is similar to the one Modgraphics sells. I lobbied doenthr hobby market. In the end the overhead numbers just don't match up with the margins in the hobby market, whereas medical devices do provide enough money.

To his credit he offered to lease the molds to me so that I could fabricate and market the parts myself. I also could not make the numbers break even, so I didn't follow it up.


So in a way Phototherm is in the same position as Kodak in the film market. The shrinking market prevents supporting a superlative product because the money isn't there.


Like it or not, our hobby success was spillover from the pro market. And with the pro market changing we're getting left to actually support ourselves. If we're willing to foot the bill we can have anything we want. But I'm just as guilty as the next guy of looking for a "used" bargain.

EdSawyer said:

Many of the parts can be sourced cheaply from sources other than phototherm. Open one up and you will see how simple the parts are, for the non-custom stuff. Hell, for the dryer (built in) it's basically a commercial blowdrier bolted into the unit(!).

Click to expand...

If we have to (a) be lucky enough to find one on Ebay for an agreeable price ($300-$800), and (b) rely on (after seeking out) third-parties for spare parts in case there's a break down, then I don't see how that makes using their machines any different from this DIY project. Besides the fact that, if successful, this project should result in *anybody* being able to cobble together a highly maintainable rotary processor for a *known price*, at *any time* (instead of getting the chance to be that lucky person that can score a used unit on Ebay, once every 4 - 5 months).

Again, the more I hear about this prospect, the more I'm convinced it's worth it to "reinvent the wheel"