TF4 questions

jstraw · Feb 13, 2007

1: Is it normal for my fixer to become discolored by my staining developer even if I'm using an adequate water-bath stop?

2: Is it ok to dump spent TF4 into a silver recovery system with acidic fixers?

Thanks.

magic823 · Feb 13, 2007

I think the answer is yes for both of your questions. A lot of the discoloration is caused by the anti-halation layer. I know with T-Max films it takes double the fixing time, just to get that layer off.

Tom Hoskinson · Feb 13, 2007

jstraw said:
1: Is it normal for my fixer to become discolored by my staining developer even if I'm using an adequate water-bath stop?

2: Is it ok to dump spent TF4 into a silver recovery system with acidic fixers?

Thanks.

1. Jack, the color in your fix may be film dye(s). What color is it?

2. Should create no problems, Jack.

jstraw · Feb 13, 2007

The fixer is sort of lightly raisin-colored.

Mike Wilde · Feb 13, 2007

it can discolour even in non-staining

I shoot plus x pan (old stock) , no stain in fix.

But if I shoot tmax100 or tmax400, there is a 'pinkinsh' is the way that I recall it- dye that takes forever to diffuse out of/off of the film. So echoing the previous post, yes, fix for longer than twice clearing time in TF-4 to get the dye to clear.

pgomena · Feb 13, 2007

I find I get a little bit of brownish color in my TF-4 fix after using PMK, even after rinsing the film in water. I usually only use one quick rinse after developing. Some folks recommend three changes of rinse water. I just keep my film fix separate from paper fix so there's no chance of cross-contamination.

Peter Gomena

jstraw · Feb 13, 2007

Thanks all.

Maine-iac · Feb 22, 2007

magic823 said:
I think the answer is yes for both of your questions. A lot of the discoloration is caused by the anti-halation layer. I know with T-Max films it takes double the fixing time, just to get that layer off.

I struggled for years with the difficulty of "getting the red out" of the T-grain films, and wasted a lot of fixer doing it before I discovered that it's really a function of the pH of the developer.

When I lowered the pH of my Phenidone/Vitamin C/Metaborate or Carbonate developer by the addition of a pinch (about 1/8 tsp.) of metabisulfite, suddenly almost all of the antihalation pink layer came off in the developer, and the rest disappeared in the fixer without increasing the fixing time beyond two minutes (rapid fix mixed 1:4).

Don't profess to have the detailed chemical knowledge for a complete explanation. But it works. Now my developer pH is between 9 and 10, and the pink problem is gone.

Larry

Tom Hoskinson · Feb 24, 2007

jstraw said:
The fixer is sort of lightly raisin-colored.

lightly raisin-colored fits with a film antihalation dye or sensitizing dye source.

jstraw · Sep 23, 2007

New TF4 question...

I just went to mix some up from an unopened 4 litre jug (my third or fourth such jug) and when I went to shake it up to mix the contents so I could measure out the right amount of stock, the white precipitate simply refused to suspend in solution. No matter how much I shake it, a white sludge that looks like Sharpei wrinkles, refuses to disolve and settles back to the bottom.

Has anyone ever seen such a thing? Any suggestions?

Richard Jepsen · Sep 23, 2007

Silver recovery should be unaffected by the ph of the fix. Not sure about your TF-4 color change but the tint of TF-4 slightly changes when fixing traditional films developed in general developers. I assume dyes are the cause.

It is normal to see a white glob in TF-4 stored for a long time. If old shelf stock, it may take a lot (100) inversions to break up the glob with additional encouragement from a stir stick. This happened twice with supplies purchased locally. My Freestyle and Photo Formulary mail orders are better in this regard taking around 20 inversions for the solution to mix within the shipped 1L container. Great stuff.

Rolleiflexible · Sep 23, 2007

Michael, is the solution cool? Liquids will take up more solids into solution when they are warmer. Might be worth setting the jug out in the sun for awhile and see if that helps.

aldevo · Sep 23, 2007

Richard Jepsen said:
Silver recovery should be unaffected by the ph of the fix. Not sure about your TF-4 color change but the tint of TF-4 slightly changes when fixing traditional films developed in general developers. I assume dyes are the cause.

It is normal to see a white glob in TF-4 stored for a long time. If old shelf stock, it may take a lot (100) inversions to break up the glob with additional encouragement from a stir stick. This happened twice with supplies purchased locally. My Freestyle and Photo Formulary mail orders are better in this regard taking around 20 inversions for the solution to mix within the shipped 1L container. Great stuff.

I have had the same experiences as Richard. I imagine this has to do with the Photo Formulary turning over its inventory quicker than local sources.

If the stick 'n stir method doesn't work, I'd try to heat the stock solution to 90-100 degrees farenheit and try again.

jstraw · Sep 24, 2007

Before I got back here to read the responses, I dumped the jug into a bucket and stirred hell out of it and got the lumpiness into solution and mixed my fixer. naturally I was so distracted by all this hoo-hah that I forgot to make my working solution with distilled water...so I guess I'll find out if it really stinks more that way.

I've never seen a jug of TF4 that didn't have an inch of whiteness settled on the bottom...but I'd also never seen one where 20 seconds of shaking the jug didn't distribute it through the solution before. This stuff set up like pudding.

Thanks for the input, all.

Photo Engineer · Sep 24, 2007

TF4 has a white precipitate that forms gradually after mixing the concentrate. I have watched the stuff made at the Formulary while taking a break from teaching a workshop there.

Although I don't know the formula, I do know that the white stuff is normal and is partially the buffer used to stabilze the pH of the fixer.

PE

jstraw · Sep 24, 2007

Photo Engineer said:
TF4 has a white precipitate that forms gradually after mixing the concentrate. I have watched the stuff made at the Formulary while taking a break from teaching a workshop there.

Although I don't know the formula, I do know that the white stuff is normal and is partially the buffer used to stabilze the pH of the fixer.

PE

Yeah Ron, I know it's normal. Not getting it to return to solution was what was not normal.

Photo Engineer · Sep 24, 2007

That is what is abnormal. I agree.

When diluted with the proper amount of water to make working solution, it should all dissolve leaving a clear solution. If you use tap water, which I do, the solution is not harmed. The smell should not vary as a function of tap water due to the good buffer capacity, nor should the solution have a precipitate or any gunk.

I have done a lot of work with TF4 and other fixes and never seen a permanent precipitate.

PE

jstraw · Sep 24, 2007

Photo Engineer said:
That is what is abnormal. I agree.

When diluted with the proper amount of water to make working solution, it should all dissolve leaving a clear solution. If you use tap water, which I do, the solution is not harmed. The smell should not vary as a function of tap water due to the good buffer capacity, nor should the solution have a precipitate or any gunk.

I have done a lot of work with TF4 and other fixes and never seen a permanent precipitate.

PE

Isn't it imprtant to get the white stuff into at least suspension before measuring stock to make working solution? I think I accomplished that and when mixed with water to working strength, it cleared in a few minutes as it always does.

Photo Engineer · Sep 24, 2007

It is my understanding that TF4 concentrate was not intended to be used bit by bit, but rather that the stock should be made at once from the concentrate. The keeping properties are so good, that I have had no problem with doing that.

PE

jstraw · Sep 24, 2007

Photo Engineer said:
It is my understanding that TF4 concentrate was not intended to be used bit by bit, but rather that the stock should be made at once from the concentrate. The keeping properties are so good, that I have had no problem with doing that.

PE

The instructions on the jug are explicit in their endorsement of mixing smaller quantites. ie: shake well and use one litre of stock to 3 litres of water to make 4 litres...

I can't afford to buy smaller quantities than the 4 litre jugs and I haven't the space to store 20 litres of working strength at a time.

Photo Engineer · Sep 24, 2007

Thanks for the correction. It has been a while since I read the instructions.

I have never mixed up less than one full bottle, but I buy it as 1 liter concentrate and mix from there.

I'm sorry then, I guess I can't help other than this. I think that you would have to warm it up and mix strongly before pouring off a small quantity. I know that when warm, everything dissolves. I have seen this.

PE

jstraw · Sep 24, 2007

Thanks Ron. Next time I'm gonna put the jug in a bucket of warm water for a while.

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