TF4 or TF5 with hypo clear?

M Carter · Nov 10, 2018

I'm doing a liquid emulsion on canvas project, and to avoid lifting of the emulsion I've found a cold wash to be very helpful. I'll be using TF5 fixer to reduce my wash times. I use RHT to test for adequate washing, straight selenium toner to check for proper fixing.

But my question is - will hypo clearing agent shorten the already short TF wash times, or will it have no effect? For this project (which are fairly large to very large prints) I'd like to get wash times as short as possible. Sodium Sulphite is about the cheapest chemical I use (I buy it in 5 lb. bags), so I don't mind the extra process step. But will it make a difference with a TF fixer? Sorry, I'm not a chemist!

Photo Engineer · Nov 10, 2018

You do not need hypo clear with either fixer, IMHO, however using either of them with liquid emulsions can lead to reticulation and frilling due to the lack of good hardness in hand coatings. You may need to use an acid fix with hardener, or use a formalin prehardener.

PE

CMoore · Nov 11, 2018

You can see where i live.
IMHO. my neighbors that use one drop of water for their stupid lawns should be executed.
Anyway.......does using Hypo-Clear aid in shortening wash time for Film and RC Paper.?
If it matters i am moslty using Ilford FP4 and HP5 in 35mm.
Thank You

Photo Engineer · Nov 11, 2018

Hypo clear is overrated. We lived without it for years, and we never used it at EK internally in our department.

PE

MattKing · Nov 11, 2018

Hypo clearing agent is, however, recommended in every single Kodak film and developer datasheet.
Do we have a religious argument here?

CMoore · Nov 11, 2018

Photo Engineer said:
Hypo clear is overrated. We lived without it for years, and we never used it at EK internally in our department.

PE

I must admit, i was not quite expecting this answer.
Sodium Sulfite...if i have my chemicals correct...i have been using a spoon full of that to One Liter of water. I was hoping that "something was better than nothing", and that i was doing no harm at worst, and helping my effort a little at best.

RalphLambrecht · Nov 12, 2018

CMoore said:
You can see where i live.
IMHO. my neighbors that use one drop of water for their stupid lawns should be executed.
Anyway.......does using Hypo-Clear aid in shortening wash time for Film and RC Paper.?
If it matters i am moslty using Ilford FP4 and HP5 in 35mm.
Thank You

You don't need it for emulsions on a plastic substrate in my opinion.

Rudeofus · Nov 12, 2018

Since you have a setup already in place for testing archival fixing and washing, I'd say take a look at HCA, if washing takes longer than three minutes. Hypo clear definitely does increase washing out of remaining Thiosulfate, but it also introduces two additional process steps.

Photo Engineer · Nov 12, 2018

MattKing said:
Hypo clearing agent is, however, recommended in every single Kodak film and developer datasheet.
Do we have a religious argument here?

Matt, water varies all over the world. There are some places where it might matter, such as in areas with high mineral content in the water, but average water is no problem.

Average film and papers, again, no problem. Neutral or alkaline fixes - no problem. Acid fixes and fixers with hardeners may present a problem especially in areas with high mineral content in waters.

That is why I suggest using retained hypo and retained silver tests.

PE

M Carter · Nov 13, 2018

Photo Engineer said:
Average film and papers, again, no problem. Neutral or alkaline fixes - no problem. Acid fixes and fixers with hardeners may present a problem especially in areas with high mineral content in waters.

That is why I suggest using retained hypo and retained silver tests.

PE

Interesting discussion. My fiber print washing procedure is a solid rinse in warm water; then sodium sulphite, mixed with a pre-mixed salt solution (I just keep a gallon of filtered water with 1/4 cup of sea salt dissolved in it). If I'm only washing a few prints, I give each print 3-4 mins. in hypo clear and then I dump the hypo clear tray into the wash tank - it circulates out in a few minutes.

But I can get even old classic papers like ektalure clean in 30 minutes this way, modern fiber papers in about 18. My wash water temp is fairly warm though, I have no problems with paper emulsions from warm water though. Never tested without hypo clear, but it's nice to not be washing for an hour and know my prints are clean.

I test for fixing with straight selenium toner on the border - if it stains, I fix more (I usually do 2-bath fixing); I test for washing with RHT.

scheimfluger_77 · Nov 13, 2018

M Carter said:
...I test for fixing with straight selenium toner on the border - if it stains, I fix more (I usually do 2-bath fixing); I test for washing with RHT.

I did not know this was possible, can you describe the selenium toner process? Is RHT the test kit from the Formulary?

M Carter · Nov 14, 2018

scheimfluger_77 said:
I did not know this was possible, can you describe the selenium toner process? Is RHT the test kit from the Formulary?

I got a new, clean nail-polish bottle from Amazon (the kind with the brush in the lid - apparently people like to mix their own colors) - I put like 1/2 oz. of straight selenium toner in it.

I leave some border space on my prints that can be trimmed or matted off for tests. When I fix, I usually do 2 bath and fix to where I feel it should be good, based on how much use the fix has had and what type of paper. I give it a decent rinse, stick it to the squeegie-wall, and blot off a section from top to bottom with a kim wipe, and put a droplet of selenium in the trim-it-off-later area. If there's any silver left, it will stain pretty much immediately. (You need to blot off a strip from top to bottom for these tests, or a droplet of water will run down and dilute/move your testing drops).

I had read a thread here years ago where people said selenium mixed 1:9 was a good fixing test, I just use it straight. Eventually (weeks/months) the brush will get dirty or contaminated and you'll get a gray particle sort of staining - I just rinse the brush and bottle out and replace with fresh toner.

For RHT I use the formulary kit - it lasts for years; the instructions say 2-year shelf life, PE has said "much longer" if it isn't exposed to light - so worth the $$ for peace of mind. Using the droplet tests that go in the fixer isn't really as accurate as testing the print itself.

Sometimes I'll go through a printing session and use 1 tray of fixer I know is a little tired to get fixing started; those prints go in a holding tray of water, and when I'm done, I'll choose any prints to trash, and then mix a tray of fresh fixer and do a 2nd bath at that time for the keeper prints, and test at that point.

MattKing · Nov 14, 2018

M Carter said:
I got a new, clean nail-polish bottle from Amazon (the kind with the brush in the lid - apparently people like to mix their own colors) - I put like 1/2 oz. of straight selenium toner in it.

I leave some border space on my prints that can be trimmed or matted off for tests. When I fix, I usually do 2 bath and fix to where I feel it should be good, based on how much use the fix has had and what type of paper. I give it a decent rinse, stick it to the squeegie-wall, and blot off a section from top to bottom with a kim wipe, and put a droplet of selenium in the trim-it-off-later area. If there's any silver left, it will stain pretty much immediately. (You need to blot off a strip from top to bottom for these tests, or a droplet of water will run down and dilute/move your testing drops).

I had read a thread here years ago where people said selenium mixed 1:9 was a good fixing test, I just use it straight. Eventually (weeks/months) the brush will get dirty or contaminated and you'll get a gray particle sort of staining - I just rinse the brush and bottle out and replace with fresh toner.

For RHT I use the formulary kit - it lasts for years; the instructions say 2-year shelf life, PE has said "much longer" if it isn't exposed to light - so worth the $$ for peace of mind. Using the droplet tests that go in the fixer isn't really as accurate as testing the print itself.

Sometimes I'll go through a printing session and use 1 tray of fixer I know is a little tired to get fixing started; those prints go in a holding tray of water, and when I'm done, I'll choose any prints to trash, and then mix a tray of fresh fixer and do a 2nd bath at that time for the keeper prints, and test at that point.

Please consider turning this into an Article/Resource - preferably with a link to the Formulary product - and posting it there.

Sirius Glass · Nov 14, 2018

MattKing said:
Please consider turning this into an Article/Resource - preferably with a link to the Formulary product - and posting it there.

+1

scheimfluger_77 · Nov 14, 2018

M Carter thanks for info.

M Carter · Nov 15, 2018

MattKing said:
Please consider turning this into an Article/Resource - preferably with a link to the Formulary product - and posting it there.

Why do I believe that if I do that, some guy with a chemistry degree is going to reply "You're doing it WRONG!!!"???

Photo Engineer · Nov 15, 2018

I have a chemistry degree and have been told "You are doing it WRONG!!!" I say "If it works, you are doing it right!"

PE

TF4 or TF5 with hypo clear?

M Carter

Photo Engineer

CMoore

Photo Engineer

MattKing

Moderator

CMoore

RalphLambrecht

Rudeofus

Photo Engineer

M Carter

scheimfluger_77

M Carter

MattKing

Moderator

Sirius Glass

scheimfluger_77

M Carter

Photo Engineer

TF4 or TF5 with hypo clear?

Moderator

Moderator

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency