TF-4 Replacement?

bennoj · Aug 11, 2008

The bottles of Formulary TF-4 fix I can find locally have all gelled - the 'solid' chemical at the bottom has become a gelled mass that is very difficult to get back into suspension. I've ordered directly from Photographer's Formulary in the past, but shipping on a gallon of liquid is pretty high and I'd like to see what suggestions others out there might have on a similar fix. Maybe I should just dig out my copy of The Darkroom Cookbook and mix my own?

Ian Grant · Aug 11, 2008

TF-4 isn't published, only TF-3

It should be quite easy to come up with a very good substitute for TF-4, it is now expensive shipping 5 litre or a US gallon of liquid.

Ian

jim appleyard · Aug 11, 2008

IIRC, Formulary sells Ammonium Thio in powder (dry) form. You can order this and other fixin's to make TF-3 and save on shipping.

Photo Engineer · Aug 11, 2008

The sediment at the bottom is normal, and is dissolved easily by using warm water to dilute it when you make up a batch of working solution. The sediment is the buffer. TF-4 is very well buffered for stability.

PE

bennoj · Aug 11, 2008

When I said "mixing my own" I meant my own fix, not TF-4 specifically. I should have been more clear.

I know the sediment is normal, but for years it's returned to solution by shaking the bottle, lately it's been more of a soft solid plastic consistency in the bottles I've bought locally but still the same as before when bought straight from PF. I rent my darkroom space and don't have any facility there for heating water beyond normal 'hot' tap temperature (110 is as hot as it gets there) to see if that would help.

john_s · Aug 11, 2008

Consider Kodak Flexicolor Fixer (primarily made for standard colour neg process). Search APUG for comments from me and others. It's cheap, keeps well.

Paul Verizzo · Aug 11, 2008

jim appleyard said:
IIRC, Formulary sells Ammonium Thio in powder (dry) form. You can order this and other fixin's to make TF-3 and save on shipping.

The cost per unit of ammonium thiosulfate is higher in the powder than the liquid, shipping included!

A pound of dry costs $9 plus shipping, IIRC. A gallon of liquid with 5 pounds costs about $25 with shipping. Do the simple math.

bennoj · Aug 11, 2008

PF lists a gallon of TF-4 as 12 pounds.

David A. Goldfarb · Aug 11, 2008

A gallon of water is 8 lbs, so there's 4 lbs of stuff that's not water in that gallon of TF-4 stock.

I am fortunate to be able to buy it off the shelf at B&H, but if I couldn't, I'd probably be thinking about TF-2 or TF-3.

Photo Engineer · Aug 11, 2008

I think Paul is saying that a gallon of liquid 60% ammonium thiosulfate is about five pounds of the solid compound and the rest is water. That would be my approximation as well. A gallon is about 8 pounds, and assuming a density of 1.0 (which is incorrect!) that would be 4.8 pounds of ammonium hypo at 60%.

So, the liquid is very much less expensive and keeps better!

PE

Ole · Aug 12, 2008

If you end up mixing your own, OF-1 is easy and simple, practically odor-free, and works.

srs5694 · Aug 12, 2008

If anybody's interested, (there was a url link here which no longer exists) This is part of the (there was a url link here which no longer exists) which includes sections for various types of photochemicals. FWIW, I've never used OF-1, in part because it requires ammonium chloride, which I don't happen to have on hand, and in part because my cost computations show it's much more expensive than other mix-it-yourself rapid fixers -- $2.05 per liter vs. $0.91 per liter for TF-3, for example. This cost difference could well vary greatly from one location to another, though. For me, it's due largely to the high cost of sodium thiosulfate vs. ammonium thiosulfate. (OF-1 uses the former, whereas most rapid fixers use the latter.) If I knew of a cheap local source of sodium thiosulfate I might just use OF-1.

David A. Goldfarb · Aug 12, 2008

I haven't found it myself, but sodium thiosulfate is used in swimming pools as a chlorine balancer. I forget if it was here or on another forum, where someone mentioned that the sodium thiosulfate they found from a swimming pool supplier was even marked as photo grade. A 50 lb. bag could last a while.

srs5694 · Aug 12, 2008

I've checked with a couple of local swimming pool supply shops and didn't find any sodium thiosulfate. IIRC, there are two or three different chemicals used for chlorine balancing, and apparently in my area (northern Rhode Island), sodium thiosulfate isn't the most popular one. Maybe I just need to track down a bigger swimming pool supply shop, though....

Paul Verizzo · Aug 12, 2008

David A. Goldfarb said:
I haven't found it myself, but sodium thiosulfate is used in swimming pools as a chlorine balancer. I forget if it was here or on another forum, where someone mentioned that the sodium thiosulfate they found from a swimming pool supplier was even marked as photo grade. A 50 lb. bag could last a while.

That's true, but right here in the heart of lots of swimming pools, no one stocks it. At least the ones I've checked which are the major players.

Ironically, I use hypo to get rid of chlorine when I do pH tests. I keep the chlorine level high and it will bleach the pH test color!

Rich Ullsmith · Aug 12, 2008

Second the recommendation on Flexicolor. Labs that are going all digital can have gallons of that and Royalprint fixer just laying about in storage, way down on the to-do list to take to the chem dump. Seems like a couple years ago I stuck a pH strip in and it was pretty close to neutral.

MikeSeb · Aug 12, 2008

Yeah, the pH of Flexicolor fixer is somewhere above 6, if memory serves around 6.5 so not far off neutral. I've gone to it as my standard fixer, mainly because of the cost of buying and shipping TF-4, my previous favorite.

As a hint--if any of you here order frequently from B&H photo, be aware that if you are a NAPP (yeah I know it's a digital organization but I like freebies) member one of the perks is free ground shipping from B&H. $99 a year for membership; I saved that amount on shipping in just two purchases, one of which was 5 gal flexicolor concentrate which would have been $50 to ship atop the ~$37 product cost.

Just a suggestion.

Photo Engineer · Aug 12, 2008

Just FYI, the release aim of Flexicolor fix is about 6.5 - 6.7.

PE

dancqu · Aug 12, 2008

bennoj said:
When I said "mixing my own" I meant my own fix,
not TF-4 specifically. ... I rent my darkroom space ...

TF-4 is an alkaline fixer. Is that what you prefer?
Also it is very buffered against acidic stop baths.
Do you use an acidic stop bath? If the answer
to BOTH questions is YES then TF-4 or your
own version of it is the one to use.

Rent by the hour? Then a rapid fixer is likely your
choice. If you though process infrequently and wish
not to throw deteriorated chemistry down the drain
a slow sodium thiosulfate fixer may be a better
choice.

Sodium thiosulfate anhydrous is a dry concentrate
which has a Very long shelf life. Mix with no additions
shortly before processing. Make any final dilutions at
time of processing.

I use S. Thio. one-shot and very dilute, film and paper.
I was using unadulterated A. Thio. concentrate, very
dilute. My sessions though are short and infrequent.
The rapid fix was too long in being used. Dan

jgjbowen · Aug 12, 2008

For the last 2 years, the formulary has offered free shipping during December. Perhaps they will offer it again this year...

TF-4 Replacement?

bennoj

Ian Grant

jim appleyard

Photo Engineer

bennoj

john_s

Paul Verizzo

bennoj

David A. Goldfarb

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Photo Engineer

Ole

Moderator

srs5694

David A. Goldfarb

Moderator

srs5694

Paul Verizzo

Rich Ullsmith

MikeSeb

Photo Engineer

dancqu

jgjbowen

TF-4 Replacement?

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