TF-4 fixer.

I am certain that great results are had using teaspoons. Call it a crutch then. I measure out 0.2 grams of Phenidone for a particular formula where Phenidone is superadditive and a primary ingredient in a liter or more of fluid. I like to know that if something were to go wrong in my results, it is not my formulation. If I were mixing D76 or D23 or some other 1930 vintage soup, I am sure teaspoons would be all I need.

As far as the capacity of TF4, my comment was from experience. I used it for over a year and when I switched to home made TF3, I noticed that I got at least 20% more capacity from the TF4. TF4 is not published and I do not know what is in it or why it has more capacity but I do know that it does. If TF4 was closer to the cost of TF3, I would buy it rather than mix my own. It does go further. I cannot comment on Kodak stated capacities, I know there are some lurking here that have intimate knowledge of Kodak formulations - I Dump any of my fixer when it takes longer than 60 seconds to clear film. I have seen my prints yellow in several years from the early days and am not willing to risk that kind of embarassment. Fresh TF3 will clear film in 30 seconds. At 60 seconds clear time, there is not more than one more printing session of capacity left for me and I dump it. Maybe I could squeze more out of it but why? Too risky in the long run. I use 1:4 for both film and paper. I do 80% fiber prints. I fix paper for over 2 minutes and film for 3 minutes. Fresh TF3 has a ph of 8.0. This gives me a non acid process with short wash times for film or paper. I think I'll keep my scale and the TF3.

Maine-iac said:

I'm with Ole. My balance scale has sat unused for nearly 25 years, because I have not yet found a photo formula that needs such precision.

Click to expand...

Well Larry, I'm not with you. There are some formulas that need precision, and I use my balance for that. Film developers especially.

But fixers don't need precision beyond the "one lump, two lumps" level. The process is not time-critical, and is supposed to go to completion. So I havent weighed out a fixer since I did it once to write down my recipe...

Stephanie Brim said:

Before I decide which size to buy, how long does the concentrate last once opened?

Click to expand...

I know that this question may seem stupid, but shipping is a two dollar difference between the larger bottle and the smaller bottle...I'd be stupid to buy the smaller bottle if the concentrate will last. So can someone kindly advise me?

Stephanie, it lasts.

BUT: Mixing half a bottole of concentrate with water to make half a batch od fixer is not quite trivial". The concentrate is a bootle full of "goop" where the bottom half is almost solid. You have to get it mixed very very well before decanting off half of it...

Ole said:

Stephanie, it lasts.

BUT: Mixing half a bottole of concentrate with water to make half a batch od fixer is not quite trivial". The concentrate is a bootle full of "goop" where the bottom half is almost solid. You have to get it mixed very very well before decanting off half of it...

Click to expand...

YES, and that's another reason why I buy a gallon of 60% Ammonium Thiosulfate from Artcraft and mix my own Neutral Rapid Fixer (a liter at a time) - no undisolved TF-4 "goop" to contend with.

You should buy as much as you have the capacity to mix. Fixer is not like developer in that you have to worry about the working strength solution oxidizing very rapidly if you don't use it.

Some people shake up the concentrate and mix part of the bottle, but I wouldn't recommend it. Sure it will clear film, but you can't really know if everything is mixed in the proper concentration unless you mix up the whole bottle.

Personally, I use TF-4 in part because I can buy it off the shelf at B&H in the store. If I had to pay to ship all that water, I'd probably make my own from dry ingredients.

Hrm. Maybe I should start looking around Iowa for chemical stores then...I'm sure there's probably one somewhere in Des Moines. Otherwise I'll see if Artcraft or the Formulary would be willing to take Paypal or a money order.

I know that both Art Craft and Digital Truth accept PayPal, although IIRC neither of them offers PayPal as an option in their checkout systems. Prepare your order and then send the details by e-mail and ask about PayPal payment. I've ordered from both places, and I've had no problems.

Why resist the pyrocat-HD order. The rodinal has a long shelf life if you find you like the HD. If you like the rodinal you might want to consider the Pyrocat-P.

If you like one shot developers and want to try a staining developer, you can order the 510 pyro kit from Artcraft.

This is a really nice developer, and it's a one shot so you don't have to mix a solution A and B.

Mike

Pyrocat P - definately - I like it better than 510

Ole said:

A third possibility: The quantities in fixers aren't really all that critical. So you can do what I do, and use x cups of this, y shotglasses of this, and z teaspoons of that. It works.

Click to expand...

In fixers, the quantities are critical. One has to keep the pH within limits. The pH should not exceed 8. Otherwise, you might experience a precipitate in the fixer. It is better to use a scale to avoid that kind of problems. Moreover, using a scale gives better consistency (washing time and pH are related too).

Jed

Or you can make a moderately well buffered system which is capable of absorbing large variations in composition (and contamination) with very small changes in pH. Much easier IMO.

Ole said:

Or you can make a moderately well buffered system which is capable of absorbing large variations in composition (and contamination) with very small changes in pH. Much easier IMO.

Click to expand...

Yes, I use a buffered neutral rapid fixer. It is based on Ammonium Thiosulfate and is buffered by a mixture of Sodium Sulfite and Sodium Metabisulfite.

The formula is here: (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Ole said:

Or you can make a moderately well buffered system which is capable of absorbing large variations in composition (and contamination) with very small changes in pH. Much easier IMO.

Click to expand...

The pH has to stay within limits for a fixer, with a maximum of 8. The stop bath can be made quite buffered, if you want. The life time of a fixing bath is determined by the amount of silver. But, the experience is that twenty 120 films is the practical limit.

Jed

Tom Hoskinson said:

Yes, I use a buffered neutral rapid fixer. It is based on Ammonium Thiosulfate and is buffered by a mixture of Sodium Sulfite and Sodium Metabisulfite.

The formula is here: (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Click to expand...

I am using a slightly alkaline fixer in combination with a buffered stop bath. In this way the washing of negatives is at a minimum. The approach with your neutral fixer will be about the same. May be a little more washing.

Jed

Again, it is easy to make a buffered rapid fixer that maintains its pH near 7.

See: Neutral Rapid Fixer (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

It is also very easy to make a buffered stop bath (acetic acid plus sodium acetate plus water) - or - (citric acid plus sodium citrate plus water), or you can just use plain water.

For fixing film, I use fixer as a one shot.

For fixing fiber paper, I use 2 fresh fixing baths and discard them at the end of a printing session. Fixer is cheap.

TF-3 fix

http://www.digitaltruth.com/techdata/tf3.php

You don't need a scale to mix this one. 800ml ammonium thiosulfate add 1 35mm cannister full of sodium sulfite + 1 1/4tsp sod sulfite + 1/4tsp Sodium Metaborate fill with water to 1 liter and use 1:4 for film and 1:7 for paper. You can add a pinch of citric acid to the diluted fixer to cut the ammonia smell somewhat.

Glenn Booth

Tom Hoskinson said:

Again, it is easy to make a buffered rapid fixer that maintains its pH near 7.

See: Neutral Rapid Fixer (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

It is also very easy to make a buffered stop bath (acetic acid plus sodium acetate plus water) - or - (citric acid plus sodium citrate plus water), or you can just use plain water.

For fixing film, I use fixer as a one shot.

For fixing fiber paper, I use 2 fresh fixing baths and discard them at the end of a printing session. Fixer is cheap.

Click to expand...

I am using a buffered stop bath ( like the one mentioned above) at a pH=4,5. At this pH the positional stability of the gelatine is optimal, ensuring positional stability of the image in the emulsion. Then I use a slightly alkaline fixer ( modified TF-3 with 60 g sodium sulfite and 6 g sodium metaborate). And the capacity is twenty 120 films or equivalent.
I use the fixer that way, because it is cheap to the photographer, but expensive to the environmental organizations to recycle it.
[As a matter of fact, environmental issues are playing a role in the the design of my high definition developers too].

Jed

Jed Freudenthal said:

I am using a buffered stop bath ( like the one mentioned above) at a pH=4,5. At this pH the positional stability of the gelatine is optimal, ensuring positional stability of the image in the emulsion. Then I use a slightly alkaline fixer ( modified TF-3 with 60 g sodium sulfite and 6 g sodium metaborate). And the capacity is twenty 120 films or equivalent.
I use the fixer that way, because it is cheap to the photographer, but expensive to the environmental organizations to recycle it.
[As a matter of fact, environmental issues are playing a role in the the design of my high definition developers too].

Jed

Click to expand...

Please keep us informed about your development of environmentally-considered darkroom chemistry. If I make the leap to mixing my own chemistry, this will be a major motivator.

jstraw said:

Please keep us informed about your development of environmentally-considered darkroom chemistry. If I make the leap to mixing my own chemistry, this will be a major motivator.

Click to expand...

Good to hear this. Although it sounds as a new thread, I will give some information here.
1. The amount of water for washing is at a minimum when the pH of the fixer is high (alkaline), but below pH=8. At pH>8 there are other problems. Washing times of 5-10 minutes are usually enough, but the time can be determined in a test for residual chemistry.
2. The fixer should be used at the real capacity, which is usually twenty 120 films or equivalent. The amount of silver will increase, and there are tests to determine the silver content. This silver might be recovered. Anyway, using a fixer to its full capacity is environmentally friendly. With a two fixer bath approach one can go to the limit and keep the activity of the fixer at a good level.
3. There are developing agents that are unstable ( like pyrogallol and pyrocatechein) and stable agents ( like hydrochinon, metol, and phenidone). The unstable developing agents are to be used in one shot film developers ( like my HD developers). These developers will lose their activity soon after the developing process, have often a small amount of chemicals anyway and one can get rid of them in the sewer system. Developers with stable developing agents cannot be dumped in the sewer system. A special treatment is required. They are expensive.
In paper developers it is often inconvenient to have unstable developing agents. The paper developers cannot be dumped in the sewer system, and the special treatment is required.
There are a number of references on the testing of fixer, residual thiosulfate etc. and references on photography and the environment.
Among these references are Kodak publications. I will give them here.
Black and White processing, using Kodak chemicals: they refer to the recipes and the ANSI standards.
On the environment: the Kodak publications J-52 and J-53.

Jed

I have my doubts about the published capacity of TF-4. Just because it clears the film does not mean that it is effective at removing the silver complexes from the emulsion. Alkaline fixers generally have rather small capacities. The preservative works best in slightly acid solutions, and you should keep the fixer neutral to slightly acid. I use F-34. The idea of using Kodak Professional Fixer without hardener is attractive, although the cost is higher. Ole's recommendations should be considered seriously.

nworth said:

I have my doubts about the published capacity of TF-4. Just because it clears the film does not mean that it is effective at removing the silver complexes from the emulsion. Alkaline fixers generally have rather small capacities. The preservative works best in slightly acid solutions, and you should keep the fixer neutral to slightly acid. I use F-34. The idea of using Kodak Professional Fixer without hardener is attractive, although the cost is higher. Ole's recommendations should be considered seriously.

Click to expand...

What reference do you have to support your claims?

Sulfite (the preservative) works from pH 4.0 - 12 AFAIK, as it is used in that range for both fixers and developers. The mechanism changes, of course, but it still works as an antioxidant.

Capacity is not pH dependant for the most part. It is more dependant on concentration and synergy.

This is based on my experience in the formulation of fixers and blixes.

PE

nworth said:

I have my doubts about the published capacity of TF-4. Just because it clears the film does not mean that it is effective at removing the silver complexes from the emulsion. Alkaline fixers generally have rather small capacities. The preservative works best in slightly acid solutions, and you should keep the fixer neutral to slightly acid. I use F-34. The idea of using Kodak Professional Fixer without hardener is attractive, although the cost is higher. Ole's recommendations should be considered seriously.

Click to expand...

I am not talking about TF-4, but about TF-3. And then I am talking about a modified TF-3. I have given the sulfite and metaborate concentrations already. This is based on results from the Agfa laboratories ( they use the neutral/slightly alkaline fixers) and confirmed by me ( the pH . goes down of course, but only to a small amount, provided a stop bath I mentioned is used).

Jed

So, i can buy fixer in larger sized to save money and not have it go to waste?