TF-4 exhausted after one use

herfsty · Apr 7, 2019

Hello all, first time user on here. I've been reading and learning from this site for a while now, but have yet to find an answer to this issue:

I've been shooting 120 HP5+ for a couple of months now. I develop in PMK, use a water stop bath, then fix for 4-5 minutes with TF-4. I absolutely love the look of PMK and could see myself sticking with it for the remainder. However, no matter what I do the fixer is exhausted after one use. It comes out of the tank a yellowish brown after every time. I'm using Photographer's Formulary for developer and fixer. I use distilled water for the fixer, filtered water for developer, and tap water for stop bath. I've tried stopping the film in running water for up to five minutes, I've tried agitating for ten seconds, dumping the water out then repeating, I've tried finishing off the stop bath with distilled water, I've tried all kinds of things. Nothing seems to work, the fixer comes out brown and after 50 rolls I'm getting frustrated.

I usually develop two rolls of 120 at a time in a Paterson 4 tank for 13.5 minutes agitating twice every fifteen seconds as per Photgrapher's Formulary instructions.
I've been buying the 1 liter bottles of Fixer from Freestyle and mixing it up in distilled water to make a gallon.
I've used TF-4 after developing in Rodinal and not had an issue.

Tried contacting Photographer's Formulary directly but have yet to hear back. Any insights would be much appreciated.

canuhead · Apr 7, 2019

are you judging your fixer by the colour after a few rolls ? I use TF5 but go by their recommendations and testing for clearing. You're also using a staining developer, which is different from Rodinal. Your fixer is fine.

John Wiegerink · Apr 7, 2019

herfsty said:
Hello all, first time user on here. I've been reading and learning from this site for a while now, but have yet to find an answer to this issue:

I've been shooting 120 HP5+ for a couple of months now. I develop in PMK, use a water stop bath, then fix for 4-5 minutes with TF-4. I absolutely love the look of PMK and could see myself sticking with it for the remainder. However, no matter what I do the fixer is exhausted after one use. It comes out of the tank a yellowish brown after every time. I'm using Photographer's Formulary for developer and fixer. I use distilled water for the fixer, filtered water for developer, and tap water for stop bath. I've tried stopping the film in running water for up to five minutes, I've tried agitating for ten seconds, dumping the water out then repeating, I've tried finishing off the stop bath with distilled water, I've tried all kinds of things. Nothing seems to work, the fixer comes out brown and after 50 rolls I'm getting frustrated.

I usually develop two rolls of 120 at a time in a Paterson 4 tank for 13.5 minutes agitating twice every fifteen seconds as per Photgrapher's Formulary instructions.
I've been buying the 1 liter bottles of Fixer from Freestyle and mixing it up in distilled water to make a gallon.
I've used TF-4 after developing in Rodinal and not had an issue.

Tried contacting Photographer's Formulary directly but have yet to hear back. Any insights would be much appreciated.

I'd say your fixer is probably not exhausted, but just discolored. Do you pre-soak your HP5+ prior to developing? The pre-soak will remove the anti-annihilation layer and might solve your brown fixer. I don't think you would have any problem using the brown colored fixer over again on your next roll.

herfsty · Apr 7, 2019

canuhead said:
are you judging your fixer by the colour after a few rolls ? I use TF5 but go by their recommendations and testing for clearing. You're also using a staining developer, which is different from Rodinal. Your fixer is fine.

I have reused the fixer on a few occasions but to my eyes the images look different, less definition, especially in the highlights. There is a freshness in the images coming off the first roll using fresh fixer compared to the rolls fixed with the used fixer. It's been a while though so maybe I'll give that another shot. Makes sense. Up to this point though everything I've read (Anchell's Film Dev Cookbook) says to discard fixer after discoloring. Could you say more about the recommendations and testing for clearing? Where might I find that kind of information?

john_s · Apr 7, 2019

No experience with that particular fixer, but generally the sign of exhausted fixer is a milkiness in the negs. Compare a good one with a suspect one in bright light.

BAC1967 · Apr 7, 2019

I’ve been using TF-5 for several years now and it seems like it can last forever. I usually develop in Rodinal, Caffenol and Beerenol. I usually stop using the TF-5 because it gets a lot of black gunk in the bottom from use, not because it stops working. I don’t bother counting how many rolls I put it thru. I sometimes check it with Hypo Chec when it starts getting old but have never seen it fail that test. Other than the black gunk the color of the liquid stays clear. I usually do at least 3 rinses with tap water between developing and fixing, no stop bath. Maybe you should try TF-5.

Peter Schrager · Apr 7, 2019

TF5 IS THE BONB!!

craigclu · Apr 7, 2019

I'm using PyroCat mostly these days but had PMK experience awhile back and also used TF-4 (and still do). I did not have the experience that you are having. I do not use stop bath with staining developers and use a water rinse instead because of the alkaline fixer. I've had the TF-4 fixer pick up the magenta cast when using T-Max films as most people are accustomed to. Mostly from habit (and I'm old and go back a long ways), I pre-soak with a drop of wetting agent as an old teacher of mine thought it was more efficient at removing antihalation material. Likely one of those old legends that got carried on by the gullible student that I am... HP5+ is my go-to film with staining developers in 120 and 4X5 so that would coincide with your film. I'm stumped, I'm afraid.

herfsty · Apr 7, 2019

When using the TF-4 with PMK would it turn brown/yellow after the first use? Would you use it again if discoloured?

Perhaps my mistake has been to disgaurd because of the fixers change in color when really it is just a result of using a staining developer as mentioned above.

Also, do you prefer the pyrocat over PMK?

chriscrawfordphoto · Apr 8, 2019

I've developed hundreds of rolls of HP5 in PMK and used TF-4 fixer for all of them. The fixer never turns brown after use. I use distilled water for both developer and fixer.

Are you mixing up the entire bottle of TF-4 at once, or are you trying to make small amounts for each developing session. You must mix it all at once. Even if you shake the concentrate before mixing, you won't get the right amounts of the dissolved solids in the mix if you try to measure small amounts of it.

John Wiegerink · Apr 8, 2019

herfsty said:
When using the TF-4 with PMK would it turn brown/yellow after the first use? Would you use it again if discoloured?

Perhaps my mistake has been to disgaurd because of the fixers change in color when really it is just a result of using a staining developer as mentioned above.

Also, do you prefer the pyrocat over PMK?

Please note that Craig is using a presoak also. I'd suggest that you might try a presoak if you are not already doing so. Using a staining developer should have nothing to do with turning your fixer a brown color, but not completely removing the anti-halation layer before the film hits the fixer will. Your stop-rinse should take care of the remaining anti-halation layer, but maybe since pyro developers have a hardening action H2O alone might not be able to in post development. H2O will certainly remove it (anti-halation layer) pre-development or as we use the term "presoak".

RalphLambrecht · Apr 8, 2019

herfsty said:
Hello all, first time user on here. I've been reading and learning from this site for a while now, but have yet to find an answer to this issue:

I've been shooting 120 HP5+ for a couple of months now. I develop in PMK, use a water stop bath, then fix for 4-5 minutes with TF-4. I absolutely love the look of PMK and could see myself sticking with it for the remainder. However, no matter what I do the fixer is exhausted after one use. It comes out of the tank a yellowish brown after every time. I'm using Photographer's Formulary for developer and fixer. I use distilled water for the fixer, filtered water for developer, and tap water for stop bath. I've tried stopping the film in running water for up to five minutes, I've tried agitating for ten seconds, dumping the water out then repeating, I've tried finishing off the stop bath with distilled water, I've tried all kinds of things. Nothing seems to work, the fixer comes out brown and after 50 rolls I'm getting frustrated.

I usually develop two rolls of 120 at a time in a Paterson 4 tank for 13.5 minutes agitating twice every fifteen seconds as per Photgrapher's Formulary instructions.
I've been buying the 1 liter bottles of Fixer from Freestyle and mixing it up in distilled water to make a gallon.
I've used TF-4 after developing in Rodinal and not had an issue.

Tried contacting Photographer's Formulary directly but have yet to hear back. Any insights would be much appreciated.

have you tried two-bath fixing?(my preferred method)

Rudeofus · Apr 8, 2019

Just curious: can you elaborate on your water stop? Can you tell us, how many water changes you do? Is there a chance, that you carry over developer into the fixer, which would also explain your different image results after a reuse ?

Anon Ymous · Apr 8, 2019

Rudeofus said:
Just curious: can you elaborate on your water stop? Can you tell us, how many water changes you do? Is there a chance, that you carry over developer into the fixer, which would also explain your different image results after a reuse ?

+1 on this. I suspect developer carry over as well. Whatever fixer you use, it shouldn't discolor like that after so little use.

koraks · Apr 8, 2019

I haven't tried PMK, but my fixer turns tan a little but with pyrocat and a lot with 510-Pyro (which is pyrogallol based like PMK). It happens with any kind of fixer I use, although I tried TF4 only once (and didn't find it to be superior in any way over any other fixer). I've never been bothered by it as I have never noted any signs of insufficient fixing when the fixer was reused a few times. Perhaps I should worry more...?

PS: I noted no significant difference between a water stop and a mild acetic acid stop; the latter I use most often.

bernard_L · Apr 8, 2019

You should judge a fixer by its ability to... fix. Do a clip test in fresh fixer, and repeat whenever you want to confirm your fixer is still OK.
http://www.rogerandfrances.com/subscription/fixer exhaustion.html
https://www.photrio.com/forum/resou...ixing-procedure-for-black-white-negatives.75/
So, do the clip test on your fixer that

comes out of the tank a yellowish brown

before you send it down the drain.

Like both references above, I discard the fixer when the clip clearing time (film does not have to be same as working film, just be consistent) has doubled. And, when I fix the actual film, I open the tank after 1 min (no risk) and fix for 2 min or twice the actual (may depend on film) clearing time, whichever is longer.

As to the cause of the discoloration of your fixer, could that be a small faction of the PMK stain being released into the fixing bath? The experience of Chis Crawford should be considered... He does not state what he uses for a stop bath; maybe the stop bath pH is significant?

koraks · Apr 8, 2019

The most obvious potential cause from my perspective would be a small amount of carryover of pyro into the fixer where it oxidizes, or it is already oxidized by the time it gets there. Either way, oxidized pyro is incredibly dark in color; it only takes a speck to turn a gallon of water noticeably colored.

Photo Engineer · Apr 8, 2019

Do not use a wetting agent in a prewet solution. It can do "bad things" to some films. Just plain water at the right temperature is what to use.

Do not mix up small batches of TF4, but you can do this with TF5.

Change the water stop as often as possible. With film, it is preferable to use running water.

PE

Saganich · Apr 8, 2019

For water stop I use 3 fill and complete dumps, extra complete on the third. Very little developer carryover.

Photo Engineer · Apr 8, 2019

Test your fixer for clearing time before you use it and then test it after you "think" it is bad. Compare the times to clear. If they are the same or nearly the same (say within about 10 - 20%) then the fixer is still good.

PE

Keith Pitman · Apr 8, 2019

I use a similar process to yours and my TF4 turns tea-colored after the first use. I keep using it with no ill effects. I’m sure the tea color in the TF4 is a carry-over from the PMK.

One thing in your process I would change is to use distilled water when mixing PMK. The purpose of the distilled water is to have a consistent PH for the developer. I think you can use tap water for stop and to mix TF4.

DREW WILEY · Apr 8, 2019

I don't get it. I've routinely used the combination of TF4 and PMK for at least the past twenty years with at least a dozen different kinds of film in numerous format sizes - hand inversion drum, trays, even rotary drums. Never an issue. Not once. I use it one-shot for 5 min at 1:3, always diluted at the time of usage (not all at once, as some insist), but with the concentrate always well mixed first. It can settle out in the bottle. I prefer to use a weak stop bath, about 1/2%, also one-shot; but then like to use a quick plain water rinse before the fix, though that doesn't seem to be essential. Browninsh discolored solution sounds like exhausted pyro carryover. Incidentally, I always presoak too.

Pioneer · Apr 8, 2019

I don't think you can be certain that your fixer is actually exhausted unless you are doing a clearing test with a small clip of film. If it takes a lot longer to clear then your fixer is probably becoming exhausted.
I usually try to stay pretty close to the manufacturer's recommendations on fixer life but I still do clearing tests now and again just to be sure that something odd hasn't happened.
Additionally I use a mild vinegar stop bath rather than just water between developing and fixing. It probably isn't true but I was taught that I needed to counteract the pH of the developer before moving to the fixing step. Perhaps unnecessary but it seems to work for me.

DREW WILEY · Apr 8, 2019

TF4 is alkaline, so carryover of acidity into the fixer is not ideal. That's why I add a brief plain water rinse between the stop and fixing steps. Maybe the water in Elko is unusual; it sure grows some big trout in the hills above there.

Rudeofus · Apr 9, 2019

The OP reported "exhausted fixer" but actually meant his negs come out less sharp when fixer is reused. This is not what is commonly called "exhausted fixer", but a concern nonetheless. Non-trivial amounts of PMK are carried over into fixer, and this carryover PMK is still active in the alkaline TF-4.

I see two ways of overcoming this:

change to TF-5, which is near neutral and should cause less problems with carryover PMK while still keeping the stains created by PMK
more thorough water rinse between developer and fixer..

TF-4 exhausted after one use

herfsty

canuhead

John Wiegerink

herfsty

john_s

BAC1967

Peter Schrager

craigclu

herfsty

chriscrawfordphoto

John Wiegerink

RalphLambrecht

Rudeofus

Anon Ymous

koraks

Moderator

bernard_L

koraks

Moderator

Photo Engineer

Saganich

Photo Engineer

Keith Pitman

DREW WILEY

Pioneer

DREW WILEY

Rudeofus

TF-4 exhausted after one use

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